Please keep in mind that OP is the author of this piece. I have seen in other threads people who have viscerally disliked Their writing and Their opinions, and I ask everyone to treat Them with respect, and to respect Their pronouns, even if you disagree with the concept of capitalized pronouns. Be(e) nice.
this post was submitted on 23 Jun 2024
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Supremacist worldviews are intolerant and do not deserve tolerance. The question at hand is whether or not OP's assertions of gender-based divinity are tantamount to supremacist ideology, such as when a cult leader claims their followers (or perhaps descendants of an ancient lineage) are inherently superior.
Also, OP might just be a troll. Remember attack helicopters? Same vibes here.
Good luck, and I do not envy your responsibility in moderating this thread.
I definitely do have to walk a tightrope here, and I am erring towards assuming good faith. A lot of the comments so far have done a great job of pushing back on this, so most of the official actions I have made so far have been to try to prevent tempers from flaring.
But, yeah, I will say that I also am uncomfortable with the implied reverence given with capitalized pronouns. I've held my tongue because I don't want to get sucked into this, and other people have already made my point better than I would have. I don't want anyone to feel as though I'm disregarding their feelings or ignoring your concerns. Moderation of Beehaw often takes a wait and see approach and actions are often only made after the mod team thoroughly comes to a consensus. But, yeah, the thread's run its course and we're locking it now.
Be(e) nice cuts both ways: I don't find the superiority implication of the capitalization to be nice, and OP's explanations don't make me think of anything nice behind them.
It may boil down to something as simple as netiquette, where ALL CAPS MEANS SCREAMING, or AlTeRnAtInG cAsE means mocking... but the explanations seem to point more in the direction of asking to use MASTER/OWNER as someone's pronouns. Not nice.
Because their opinions are being weaponized to accuse anyone who doesn’t conform to exactly how they wish to be addressed as being bigoted.
This is the same type of rhetoric that DroneRights used, another narcissist. I think it’s extremely important to differentiate this kind of thing from genuine issues.
You've been rather hostile in your comments so far. Knock it off. This is a beehaw community and we expect you to be(e) nice here. Sounds like you'd be best off just disengaging and blocking Grail, tbh.
I’ve been straightforward but not hostile. There is a line where absurdity does not need to be accepted as it devalues real discrimination experienced. When some literally thinks they’re a god, and expects people to shift how grammar works to tend to them, that needs to be pointed out as ridiculous. They are not experiencing the discrimination that trans users do.
Wow, obsessed with me much?
Mods, this user is an alt-right troll. Ban him. Here he is repeatedly saying xenogenders are a mental illness.
https://startrek.website/comment/8362309
https://startrek.website/comment/8466225
Also n*rcissist is 100% a slur don't call me that.
I have issued a warning. We'll see how things go.
Speaking of bans, if you are indeed DroneRights, then one of your other accounts has been banned on Beehaw. I'm not entirely sure of the ban evasion procedure here, so I won't act on this. Someone else might, though.
This is DroneRights third or fourth alt. He’s now accusing me of being an “alt right troll” which is rich.
I don't use he/him. Stop misgendering me.
Corrected.
I am indeed DroneRights, and I believe I was banned unfairly. I made an appeal here: https://lemm.ee/post/18862720, but never received any follow-up from the Beehaw admins.
This is an alt of the user in question, doing exactly what I’m talking about
There appear to be some logical leaps and conclusion-shopping going on here, so I'm going to try to identify them systematically.
Capitalization of pronouns in the English language is used to denote divinity or royalty. If I refer to Jehovah with a small-h "he," I haven't misgendered him, I have blasphemed. I don't intentionally misgender people (even fictional ones), but I regularly blaspheme gods. I'm an atheist, it's what we do.
Being a man doesn't make one part of the patriarchy and doesn't confer superiority. Being divine ipso-facto makes you superior -- both socially and inherently. As I reject the notion that some people are inherently superior to all others, I blaspheme cult leaders who claim to be gods, demigods, or incarnations thereof, and I refuse to give reverence to prophets and monarchs who claim proximity to the divine. I believe this makes the world a better, less exploitative place.
I also see capitalized pronouns used (infrequently) in BDSM. Specifically, it is how some subs refer to their doms when in some extreme forms of 24/7 power exchange relationship. That's okay, but as with other BDSM activities, power exchange never includes people who didn't consent to be part of it, and consent is never obligatory. Doms who attempt to extend their authority beyond the confines of a scene are swiftly ridiculed or ostracized for consent violation.
So for anyone to make the claim that capitalized pronouns should be respected by everyone, they must first make the case that divinity is a gender. Second, they must make the case that associating with the divine does not denote inherent superiority. Third, they must make the case that compulsory use of capitalized pronouns is not compulsory submission that would violate consent.
This entire situation has been bothering me for nearly 24 hours now and I think this is the best summary I've read of why the concept is bothering me so much.
Good luck with that. I've come around on using whatever standard gender pronouns (he/she/they) but with what to me seems insulting (it) and capitalizing... I'll just still to using the proper noun.
It doesn’t matter what you think
You've already lost the battle if you think this way. You show disregard for what other people care for and then expect them to care about your thoughts? Walls instantly go up and no dialog will be had.
When we are talking about an issue where someone is potentially at risk of suicide, nothing else matters. There's nothing else in the pronoun debate that comes close to the weight of all the dead kids lost to suicide because they didn't feel accepted by our transphobic society. We need to make trans people feel accepted. Someone else thinking they're accepted isn't good enough, because that doesn't change the suicide risk. The only measure of whether trans people are actually accepted is what trans people think.
To clarify are you implying people not capitalizing pronouns when interacting with you makes you feel suicidal?
Hmm... this makes me uncomfortable, and although I don't think it's internalized phobia or anything like that, I want to interrogate that discomfort to see if I can nail it down.
I do think it's difficult or maybe impossible to decouple this practice from indications of power for most people. The only instances of capitalized pronouns in common use that I've seen are the God and Jesus usage, and in some circles, capitalizing pronouns for a dominant in a role play context. "I" getting capitalized is also there, kind of, but that's not a power thing because it's not special, everyone is expected to use it as a language rule. I've also seen things like "oh, sure, that's what They want you to think" or, not quite a pronoun, something like "they want you to fear The Other," maybe less of a power thing but definitely a signal of additional weight and meaning above and beyond the word's usual sense.
I think this is the main source of my discomfort, that this practice is currently used almost exclusively at least as "this word is being used in a special and important context, pay extra attention" and going as far as "I am explicitly signaling that the person being referred to is superior." I don't use He/Him pronouns for God or Jesus because I don't belong to those religions and don't see those entities that way, and I have a fundamental belief in the equality of all humans that makes me uncomfortable putting a person on a pedestal like that.
I feel uncomfortable about it/its pronouns as well for the same reason, I don't like the idea of dehumanizing or objectifying a person, but in that case I actually have some friends who use them. It's easier to take a "well, if it makes you happy, it's no harm to me" attitude if it's asking for a "demotion" so to speak, I think. The personal connection probably does help too, I don't know anyone who wants capitalized pronouns myself.
I've seen Dan Savage use capital pronouns to refer to dominants when answering letters, but that seems to me like Dan stepping into the letter writer's scene space and choosing to go along with the "rule" while he's there giving advice, kind of a "good houseguest" thing. I don't think that's something that the rest of us are obligated to do as a rule. I'd push back on a friend insisting that I refer to their dominant with capitalized pronouns, because whatever their relationship is with each other, their dom isn't my dom, and I didn't agree to that hierarchy, they did.
I think the other discomfort is more of a language and grammar thing, which obviously is less important than an actual person's comfort (see also, the old "they is always plural" chestnut) so I'm not going to assert that this is a reason to disregard a person's wishes, and language rules are subject to change. But in general capitalization is not all that significant in English, which we know because something written in all caps or in all lower case usually has no meaning removed. Words at the start of sentences, proper nouns, and "I" get capitalized, and that's mostly it. It's mostly about readability, because ALL CAPS DOESN'T HAVE AS MUCH CONTRAST but when used sparingly as we usually do, important words stand out with a capital letter. "Demanding" that a particular word be used to refer to yourself in the form of pronouns is in the same ballpark as choosing your own name, obviously completely reasonable and acceptable, but "demanding" that special language rules be used about yourself feels a step beyond that. I don't want to cross into "oh so could you identify as an attack helicopter too" territory, but I do wonder about some of the boundaries on this. Lots of people habitually write in all lowercase, would it be disrespectful to say "oh yeah i saw larry at the empire state building and had a conversation with him" if Larry uses He/Him pronouns? Would Larry be upset about both the name and pronouns, or just the pronouns? I don't think most people would get up in arms about their proper name getting de-capitalized in that context which seems like further evidence that capitalization isn't normally a meaningful aspect of the writing, it's a more mechanical and practical rule, so insisting that for certain people it does need to be made significant feels like more of an imposition to me, and comes right back to the "you need to treat Me as special and more important" feeling that I have.
To delve into a slight tangent on your final point about the grammatical quirk of writing in all-lowercase, I'm curious as to your thoughts on a related question. What of an individual who prefers their name be written with lowercase letters? To use my own handle as an example, imagine that I requested that others refer to me as "ava" rather than "Ava", and had styled my display name accordingly. Does your opinion vary depending on whether it's a chosen name as opposed to a handle?
I have someone in my circles who prefers her name be written thusly, and while I occasionally find her somewhat inappropriately (unfairly? rashly? my vocabulary fails me at present...) militant about the topic when strangers err, I have no opposition to using the name for her as she requests, whereas I comparatively share your reservations about the use of capitalized pronouns and their associations with dynamics of power/relationship between parties.
I wonder too how I might feel should a requested name require other deviations from standard grammar, such as unusual punctuation. Were I to identify myself as "Ava!" it would certainly cause some occasionally grammatical frustrations, but I wonder if a reason given might affect the perception either in favor or against adoption. For example, the Sharks! installation rather literally evokes exclamation through its name.
As an example, the author/activist bell hooks’ pen name was requested to be stylized in lower case.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/bell_hooks
In her case, she wanted people to focus on her writing rather than her name. Often times, even at the start of a sentence, you’ll see news articles lowercase her name.
To your latter point, I think the reason given definitely does influence my feelings on the matter - I’m comfortable giving someone “de-emphasis” when requested out of respect, or referring to someone by their preferred pronouns out of general respect as well. However, I do have lines that feel uncomfortable to cross, that I wouldn’t cross, such as a white person preferring to be called “Master”.
Correct spelling of a name is also very different than spelling of generic pronouns.
I find your comment interesting, and I can't help wanting to try a little experiment with you. See, while I use multiple pronoun sets depending on My mood and fronter, one of My pronoun sets is It/Its. You said you accept it/its because you perceive that pronoun as diminutive, but you're less inclined to accept a pronoun you perceive as indicating superiority. What about both at the same time? What do you think of calling Me an It?
Ooh, interesting. I'm kind of surprised to find that I do feel more comfortable with It/Its actually, not so much because of the logical "promotion and demotion cancel out" aspect, but because it's two atypical constructions combined, and that almost pushes it out of intuitive meaning entirely for me. I know the context and convention for each one individually but nothing for both of them at the same time, so I think I'm more open to allowing a meaning to be defined that isn't hierarchical if It assures me that it isn't. (Pure grammar bonus points in that last sentence where this type of capitalization happens to remove an ambiguity!) For He/Him and She/Her, though, I find it hard to set aside the established meaning because it's in wide use and has been for quite some time. Maybe that's a rigidity that deserves to be bent, people push back on the more "out there" neopronouns for similar reasons, but I think it's likely that most people will instinctively react negatively when encountering this, and it's going to be difficult for what I have to imagine is a very small group of people to change the general understanding to something more acceptable.
Thank you. I do want My pronouns to be something unlike what people are used to dealing with. I got the idea for My pronouns from My goddess-mother who suggested them, and She has a name that's always lowercase. If you capitalise the first letter of Her name, you're deadnaming Her. Unfortunately I rolled really badly on the preferred name and pronouns stat during character creation, and now I have to deal with preferred pronouns that society chooses to see as a symbol of oppression. I deal with more dysphoria these days than I did when I was closeted, because it hurts a lot worse when someone knows My pronouns and still misgenders Me. There's an intentionality to it that wasn't there before. But I also get more euphoria when people are respectful, so I'm happy with My decision to come out of the closet in contexts like My blog and this account.
I want to circle back to the similarity I drew with transmasculinity in the article. Suppose there's a person, we'll call her Jenny, who refuses to he/him absolutely anyone. She doesn't believe in the male gender at all. Jenny knows that gender is a social construct, and refuses to respect the construct of masculinity, which is rooted in patriarchy. Jenny misgenders every man, trans or cis, that she knows. She respects all kinds of neopronouns and is a nonbinary ally, but she categorically refuses to he/him anyone. Personally, I disagree with Jenny because of all the non-misogynist men out there trying to make masculinity non-toxic. They don't deserve to be misgendered. What do you think of Jenny?
Your gender doesn’t get to influence what part of a sentence I capitalize. This 100% feels like a narcissist co-opting LGBT issues to force a power dynamic in conversations that lets them play the victim at the slightest mistake.
Judging by your comment history-which I don’t even have to check because you’ve been posting about this for days-that’s exactly what I see happening.
i would have appreciated hearing how the author, personally, found capitalized pronouns to be affirming, because, absent that reasoning, it really does seem like it's to set up a deferential power dynamic. i don't really mind respecting the pronouns anyways, but it does mean i don't really want to be friends with Them until i understand what's going on there better
Yeah, I agree. For me (a trans woman) it'd make me slightly uncomfortable if somebody capitalised my pronouns each time because I'd feel like some type of power dynamic that's not comfortable for me to sit in. If that's not an issue for OP, that's okay, but with my specific cultural background i'd find it a bit difficult to interact with Them in that way (not that it's hard for me to respect Their pronouns, just that it's slightly uncomfortable in a power dynamic way)
My goddess-mother told Me to try out capitalised pronouns after I came out to Her as goddessgender. I liked Them. It doesn't feel like a power dynamic to Me. I have NPD and I know what NPD supply feels like, and being gendered correctly isn't it. Having capitalised pronouns used feel like a relief on the same level as when I first transitioned from male to female and had feminine pronouns used. As big a difference as that was, this is. So I don't know how to verbalise what it feels like except, "It's gender euphoria". And I just hope readers understand what having your pronouns used feels like when you're trans.
So, wait, just to be clear: the writer is claiming that the writer's gender is not a gender but instead that the writer has some divine status?
M/F/NB/genderqueer/etc aside, human vs divine is not a gender question and this is no longer a discussion about pronouns showing respect and affirmation of gender identity, this is literally a demand for worship.
the writer is claiming that the writer's gender
Are you purposefully talking to It using the third person? Because that just seems like a roundabout way of misgendering them on purpose, with an extra dash of disrespect.
As the writer has stated, the writer views any pronouns that are not capitalized as misgendering them, and stated the pronouns were chosen specifically to reflect the writer's self-identified divine status as "goddess gender" (a term that, as far as I can tell, only exists on one wiki and the writer's blog).
The choice of capitalized pronouns was specifically chosen to imitate reverential capitalization, indicating divine status. As part of the writer's argument, this is intended to put the writer on the same level as the Abrahamic God. The writer also states in the article that "by affirming trans capitalised pronoun users, generally you are dismantling monotheistic oppression," which is a wild claim that I cannot agree with. The use of capitalized pronouns is therefore intended to strip the other party of their beliefs, either as a monotheist or atheist (as using reverential pronouns would also affirm a polytheist worldview that they disagree with).
I cannot use any pronouns that do not acknowledge the writer's claimed divine status without the writer claiming I am misgendering them. This is the most respectful way I can refer to the writer without acknowledging divine status or actively misgendering the writer.
I am more than happy to use whichever (lowercase and grammatically correct) pronouns are requested, as I am more than happy to refer to you as they/them, (which is also the default I try to use, though I understand some people are frustrated with they/them as it can strip a chosen gender identity).
Divine status is not a gender identity. Words mean things, and language can evolve, but this is specifically appropriating a style of writing while disparaging the source of that style.
No, I don't want worship from you or anyone else here. My gender is goddess. I'm not a man, I'm not a woman, I'm a goddess.
Recognising someone's identity is not the same as worshipping them. Not even for gods. Monotheists have spread the myth that you can only believe in a god you worship, but historically this isn't true. Before the Roman Empire, most people believed in the gods of other cultures. I have an article on the subject: https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/how-rome-killed-polytheism-fa7ade0b9050
But the form in which the writer affirms the writer's divine identity (again, not gender) is using reverential capitalization, a form of worship. If the writer said "I am a kami and use ke/ker pronouns" there wouldn't be a worship aspect (though again, identity as a divinity or other non-human is not a gender).
If you don't think I'm a goddess, what do you think My gender is?
The writer has stated in other comments that the writer is non-binary, which is the closest I can get to an answer to the question, but the actual answer to this question doesn't matter. We can apply gender identity to humans and non-humans (e.g. animals, fictional aliens, heck even ships) but divinity is not a gender, it's a supernatural or spiritual status.
People are free to identify as whatever gender (or non-gender) they so choose but by telling me "you must accept that I am divine," we're having an entirely different discussion. By requesting capitalized pronouns, the writer is also requesting their spiritual beliefs to be affirmed, which is implicitly (and apparently intentionally) forcing the other party to change their spiritual beliefs.
Nonbinary isn't a gender. It's an umbrella term for about a billion genders. I have a gender identity, and it's goddess. I'd like you to stop saying My gender identity is invalid, please.
Hold up, goddessgender?
Oh fuck this is the Swarmgender guy all over again isn’t it
I don't know what you're talking about, but I'm not a guy. I'm a goddess. I'm nonbinary, it's called a xenogender.
You’re not a goddess, you’re a human. I wouldn’t at all be surprised if you were the same user as DroneRights.
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