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It's Time to Start Using the Term 'Palestinian Civilian' Correctly (www.newsweek.com)

submitted 4 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 4 months ago

This is pure genocide apology. Even if it were true that the hostages were held by civilians, the 200+ Palestinians killed were not all holding the hostages. The 600+ injured were not holding the hostages. What a disgusting article. So because a few people "deserved it" we can massacre civilians. Fuck off

[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 months ago

Ah yes, newsweek. Truly a paragon of human rights advocacy.

[+] [email protected] -7 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (3 children)

(Edit: There used to be a comment here where I was trying to say the blaming the Palestinians for fighting back, on any level, is unreasonable.)

(What I actually wound up saying was victim blaming in a grossly unfair fashion. I'm taking it down. The reply down further below where I try to explain it a little bit better, I'm leaving up, although that one also may still be unfair.)

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 months ago

So babies and children and the parents caring for them are cowards? That was the dumbest thing I've read this month. Congratulations.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Then you are a coward and a piece of shit of the absolute highest order

I think that’s pretty easy for you to say from the outside looking in.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I'm not saying anything against someone who for one reason or another (like that they are 2 years old or something) isn't taking part in fighting, or just wants to live and not to be a part of the killing on either side.

I'm saying that if you don't "align" yourself mentally against the invaders while they're killing your family and blowing up your country, then yes, I think you're a piece of shit. Meaning, it makes no sense to punish ordinary Palestinians or treat it as anything wrong with them if they are "aligned" against the Israelis or willing to take part in anti Israeli activities, no matter who they are. That may make them "not civilians" legally, but to remain a fully unaligned-with-the-conflict civilian, all the way up until your house is the one getting blown up and you and your family are the dead ones, is unequivocally wrong. In my opinion, and maybe I have no right to say that. You're right that I'm just saying it from the outside without the slightest idea of the reality of what I'm talking about.

The solution is to stop the Israelis from brutalizing Palestine in a way that anyone with a shred of human spirit would try to resist against. The solution is not to decide that now that they've done that, any Palestinian who doesn't like it isn't a civilian anymore, so it's okay to kill them too.

(And if someone in Palestine doesn't care and just wants to get away and be safe, then that is fine. Not saying anything against that. And if they want to work for peace, and that's their resistance, then great. That is much better. But I'm saying you can't blame someone for fighting back in a situation this desperate and unfair.)

[–] [email protected] -1 points 4 months ago

There is no metal gymnastics western media won't do to provide Israel blank check for their ethnic cleansing campaign.

The goal is that Israel's guilt is socialized among all of us...

[–] [email protected] 45 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Sure, let's do start using it correctly. I'll go first:

Israel is engaged in mass murder of Palestinian Civilians.

[+] [email protected] -34 points 4 months ago (4 children)

Let me go second.

Hamas uses child soldiers to attack Israel.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 4 months ago (1 children)

80% of Hamas has been orphaned by Israel. Israel has destroyed nearly all the schools. Israel has been starving the Gazans for decades

Israel tries Palestinian children in military court for decades, without parental or legal representation.

But sure buddy go off on your propaganda

[+] [email protected] -12 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Are you saying that they are not using child soldiers? It seems to me like you're just making excuses for them using child soldiers.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Of course im justifying their use of child soldiers. What im wondering is how YOU identify a soldier of Hamas vs a citizen of Palestine defending their home from a military invasion. Because last i checked there are no uniform factories in palestine

[–] [email protected] -4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

You identify them through their chain of command. If they are getting weapons and/or instructions from Hamas, they're a soldier.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Do you honestly believe there is an army on this earth capable of tracking the chain of command for every enemy they encounter?

[–] [email protected] -1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

No, I believe that if you have a terrorist hiding in a home with 5 civilians who aren't giving them up or stopping them, you have 6 terrorists. I believe that if some of those are children, then their parents have failed them. They don't deserve to die, but they also don't have a right to complain about getting bombed at that point. Choices were made, and actions have consequences.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

If the children's parents were murdered, is it the child's fault or the parents fault? If the murderers are then going around murdering every relative, teacher, doctor and neighbor of the child is it the child's fault still?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago

Children have no responsibilities for their actions, it's always the parents responsibility until they reach at least their teenage years and often even beyond that based on how the parents have raised them.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 months ago (1 children)

How many of the over 10,000 children killed were soldiers?

[–] [email protected] -4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

That's a good question, how many does it take for it to be considered a problem?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I would suggest that the problem is all the non-soldier children getting killed.

I'm not sure why you don't seem to think so.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I'm pretty sure soldier children is ALSO the problem. Or do you believe those children had full consent in that like an adult?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 months ago

I agree, but I didn't think it was worth arguing that point.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Tsk, tsk, tsk. You didn't use "Palestinian" or "civilian" in that sentence. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Got it, so that makes it alright to kill 30,000 civilians who aren't child soldiers.

I'm glad you reset my moral compass.

[+] [email protected] -20 points 4 months ago (2 children)

How exactly do you fight a terrorist organization who uses children as both soldiers and human shields without any sort of civilian casualties?

You realize this style of warfare that Hamas has chosen is specifically designed to lead to civilian deaths right?

They could all line up on an open area and fight Israel soldier to soldier, but they choose not to.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 months ago (1 children)

You don't. There is no path the peace for Israel through genocide.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

If there's nobody left to fight you that's technically peace.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Let's say you wiped out all the Palestinians. Do you believe that results in peace? Do you remember what motivated Osama Bin Laden? Do you think the rest of the Arab world would be at peace with Israel?

[–] [email protected] -2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

The rest of the arab world started the fight with Israel. Five countries invaded them the day after the British protectorate left.

So no, there won't be peace. Religion is a hell of a drug.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

That's a very one sided view of history. If you can't see that occupied people have legitimate grievances then there's just no point in talking.

Plenty of situations that "could never change" actually did. The past is filled with impossible situations consigned to the dustbin of history.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Most of them moved there during the British occupation, so I'm not really sure what you're arguing here. The Muslim population of the region doubled between the start and end of the 25 years of British Occupation, and that wasn't from just births.

Same with the Jewish population, which tripled over that period.

The "ancestral ties" of both groups are tenuous at best. Yes they were both there before, but most of the people living there have a grandparent or three who were born outside the region.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Palestine was Arabic before the British (part of the Ottoman empire)

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Palestine also had Jews pre-biblical times, around 1000 BC. There are verses about the Kingdom of the Israel in the old testament, and it's all part of that region.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago

Yeah, sure - I know

[–] [email protected] 12 points 4 months ago (1 children)

How exactly do you fight a terrorist organization who uses children as both soldiers and human shields without any sort of civilian casualties?

Probably with more nuance than bombing entire neighborhoods...

Seriously, there is absolutely no possible ethical excuse for what Israel is doing. Right now the IDF is pretty indistinguishable from the SS. Genocide is genocide and Israel has come all the way from victim to perpetrator. The irony and reality of it is making the rest of the world sick, the only question is, why isn't it doing the same to the people of Israel?

[+] [email protected] -7 points 4 months ago (2 children)

See the problem is, you don't know how to do it without injuring civilians, and neither does any other country fighting against terrorists using this style of warfare. The whole playbook for them is to make it impossible to fight without wholesale slaughter. Israel has chosen that option here rather than letting them continue.

They are far from the first country to do so.

The US killed around 50,000 Afghani civilians as direct retaliation for 9/11 in a bomb all the shit campaign against the Taliban. Did it make Americans sick enough to stop it?

The US killed a few hundred thousand civilian Iraqis during that 2003 invasion, and it turns out the entire premise for the invasion was false. Did it make Americans sick enough to stop it?

FFS, the US nuked two Japanese cities.. and the public was totally onboard at the time.

The Japanese have done it themselves to China and Korea. China has done it to a bunch of different minorities now. Clearly the Germans did it. Russia has done it. The British and Spanish have done it.

Civilian populations of the offending country rarely have a problem with it, that hasn't started until very recently in history.

So why would Israelis be sick of killing 30,000 Palestinians in response to an attack that killed over 1000 Israeli Civilians (and where they kidnapped hostages)?

You may not like this answer, but it's still correct.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago

The only way out is diplomatic. They will not bomb their way to peace

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago

See the problem is, you don't know how to do it without injuring civilians,

Fucking diplomacy.

Israel is being like a five year old... Learn to use your words, you'll get better outcomes.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 4 months ago

Starving children, bombed hospitals and schools, whole neighborhoods reduced to rubble... Yeah let's worry about properly defining "civilian".

[–] [email protected] 16 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

The casualty count is likely way fucking higher than the official numbers. They can't count the people under the rubble.

Wouldn't be surprised if it was already past 100,000

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago

Mehh that is like 5% per 6 months... IDF: these are rookie numbers, got to get 'em up.