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This take is pretty dumb. If someone is taking hostages, and killing some hostages guarantees that the purpertrator can't take future hostages, it's a shorty but understandable tradeoff. In the context of of the Israel/Gaza conflict it is infinity more complex. Please read about the history of the region and the nature of the conflict.
But this is the most reasonable response.
If they realize that human shields aren't working, they won't use them and a more optimal number of people will be killed overall.
Also, any human shields you kill should be attributed to the people using those human shields.
Thats my take on this. I will agree to disagree with anyone who thinks otherwise.
PS: For all those replying: where did the words "Israel" and "Hamas" come from? I would like to bring to your attention that I didn't cover any details specific to the conflict anywhere above.. As far as I am concerned:
PPS: Lets play some mental games for a second.
Statement 1: X is mass murdering innocent people. And Y is trying to kill X.
Who is the bad guy and who is the good guy? X is bad Y is good.
Now let me reveal How X is mass murdering people.
Statement 2: X is doing so by putting those innocent people into the fire of Y on X.
You cannot tell me Y is worse than X after that. I don't say that we can't judge Y for attacking X under these circumstances, but X is never better than Y.
If they realize that human shields aren’t working, they won’t use them and a more optimal number of people will be killed overall.
Israel has claimed it is shooting through human shields for decades. Do you think Hamas is too stupid to realize that it doesn't work?
Hamas likes it when Israel kills Palestinian citizens, because it make Israel justifiably look bad. Hamas wants to get other countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran involved in the war, and dead Palestinian civilians helps that goal.
That completely contradicts your original point, that "If they realize that human shields aren’t working, they won’t use them"
That wasn't me who said that mate. Learn to read usernames.
Well fuck I just responded from my inbox. Whatever.
So you think Israel is too stupid to realize how bad this makes them look and they are playing right into Hamas's hands?
Yeah no, the person behind the human shield wants to kill you and your family and is actively trying to accomplish said goal.
And so you're justified in killing an unlimited amount of children to get to them.
Again, it's the trolley problem. No one is saying unlimited amount.
It sure fuckin looks like Israel is saying "unlimited amount"
By what statement? By what action? "Unlimited amount" would be to not alert ahead of an attack on northern Gaza and catch Hamas commanders unguarded while destroying buildings with people still in them. What they did is provide a notice weeks ahead of the invasion of "we're gonna invade you, run". That's literally the best thing they could've done in that situation humanitarianly, and the most ridiculous thing to do militarily.
Israel has stopped warning people. No text messages and no calls (not that there's power to receive them) and no roof knocking.
They're bombing the safe zones. They're bombing the evacuation routes. They're bombing UN schools and shelters. More children are dying per day in this conflict than any conflict in recent history. Thousands and thousands of children are dead or buried under rubble.
Stop defending genocide. You are on the wrong side of history and we will remember.
"You warned everyone weeks ahead but you stopped doing so now so you're wrong"?!?!?!?!?
Are you serious? What more do you want from them? They did everything they could to alert everyone in Gaza that they were coming and the need to evacuate.
They're making their own safe routes, transferring thousands of civilians through them. You really can't expect more from an army, when its purpose is killing its enemies. Looks like they waste lots of time doing non-killing.
And the number of victims is terrible, but it's the price of war, and it looks like the Palestinian leaders are more than happy to accept those numbers. War is a 2 sided thing, and you only blame one - and the one which is doing literally all it can to prevent needless death. While the other side, which you think is just, is parading dead bodies and advocating for true genocide "from the river to the sea". What peace can there be with that kind of leadership.
History will remember this war like they remember WW2. Did Britain kill civilian germans? Lots. The number of german killed vs the number of British killed is humongous. Are they remembered as "merciless killers"? No. Because they were fighting objective evil.
So is Israel.
They're bombing the safe zones you lying shit. No where is safe. The goal is to make Gaza uninhabitable so they are forced to flee the country and then Israel can annex the strip and make it part of Israel proper. Multiple politicians and government agencies have openly said this!
Ethnic cleansing through mass killing. Genocide.
Also? A multiethnic democracy, a free Palestine, from the river to the sea is not genocide. Making Israeli Jews into Palestinians is not genocide. Hamas wants to destroy Israel, which is a settler colony made from a British imperial mandate and it doesn't have a right to exist.
LOL multiethnic democracy I can't even. In what bizzare la la land do you live in
Have you ever heard a single Palestinian talk about the issue? I'd recommend watching "the ask project" on Youtube and actually realize who the terrorists you're supporting really are. They're extremist Islamics who want a jihad state like Iran, where Jews have been prosecuted and banished in a severe ethnic cleanse in the 20th century. Oh and btw that "colony" was approved by the UN, not by the U.K. There needs to be a jewish state, the second world war proved that. They're the actual most prosecuted people ever, unlike Palestinians who brought this upon themselves when they went out to war on their own terms and lost on their own terms and refused to actually start a country on internationally accepted borders, since jihad views the infadels as enemies, and only islam can rule the region. Just read Hamas' covenant.
And yes. Israel bombs Gaza. They're in a war, and civilians die. Those so-called "safe zones" aren't safe because of course they're not, when Hamas operatives who are arming themselves also take "shelter" there. How can a place have peace when people are arming themselves 20m away, on their way to perform an actual ethnic cleanse of jews.
Oh and if Israel are trying to ethnic cleanse through mass killing, they truly suck at it, given they still have over 2m people to savagely kill rape and parade their bodies. Oh wait! That's what Hamas did, not Israel. Oops. Got confused, since you keep crying genocide towards the wrong side.
I swear lemmy is full with people like you, who believe everything Hamas is telling since they're the "oppressed", "weaker" side, and without using a single brain cell and actually see who're the bad guys here. It's either that or you just really hate the west and wish to live in Iran - which if that's the case - we have no conversation here, and maybe you should move to a place fit to your messed up ideals of religious authoritarianism.
Ignoring the rest of your racist rant:
Oh and if Israel are trying to ethnic cleanse through mass killing, they truly suck at it, given they still have over 2m people
Here's the plan, that Israeli politicians and agencies and think tanks have been pretty explicitly saying:
They want to expell the Palestinians in Gaza into Egypt through the use of collective punishment and mass killing because they can't actually kill them all. Yes, they have enough bombs and control over imports to technically sterilize the concentration camp, but if they actually did that the world would turn on them. Even America would be forced to drop them and they'd be more isolated than the DPRK, with the entirety of the region would declare war on them.
Whatever. Public opinion is not on your side and history will not look kindly on you. You're losing.
And what were the racist things I said? I'd like to know given you clearly know so much more about the conflict, even more than the U.S, with your brilliant master plan of Israel politics
And I don't like to feel like a broken record, but again, history remembers Britain as the just side although the casualties in Germany were much much greater. So again, I doubt that.
I see this as 2 sides of the world fighting right now: the west with its western ideology, vs the countries who are against said western values (Iran Russia China), which the global left chose to side with the authoritarian regimes of the world... Sounds like the good call. Totally. Yep.
If anything, I'd put my money on the western side, which is Israel vs the terrorists Iran proxies (Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis).
The IDF's solution to bank robbers holding people hostage would be to blow up the bank
If that were the case, Gaza would be a flat parking lot right now.
When that mass shooter was in Uvalde they should have droned the school.
Better analogy would be the killer in uvalde using a kid as a human shield while also shooting into the other classrooms trying to kill other kids.
Do you shoot back or do you sit around like the cops did and wait till the killer gets bored, runs out of ammo, or runs out of victims.
Just look up how many thousands of rockets and mortars Hamas has launched at seemingly random targets in Israel since October 7th.
The “rockets” you’re referencing aren’t the threat you’re trying to invoke. How many Israelis have been killed by Hamas rockets ever much less since October 7th? Maybe if Israel didn’t have a concentration camp outside of their city walls they wouldn't have to worry about the threat of retribution?
Better analogy is the Uvalde shooter also starved and killed kids in the school for generations. Then some of the starving children started throwing sharpened pencils.
The “rockets” you’re referencing aren’t the threat you’re trying to invoke.
So the rockets that killed ~~500~~100+ people at al-Ahli hospital aren't that big of a threat?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/10/26/gaza-hospital-blast-evidence-israel-hamas/
Do go on...
Better analogy would be the killer in uvalde using a kid as a human shield while also shooting into the other classrooms trying to kill other kids.
Sure, and then you bomb the school to kill them all. Also bomb all the surrounding buildings just in case.
The movie Blazing Saddles has a scene where the protagonists threatens himself as hostage. It worked. Movie Clip Not Censored https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTNJUjsNKVk&t=153s
Look, we all know that if Israel wanted to kill two million people in Gaza, no one in the world could stop them. Not saying it's okay that even 0.5% have been killed because that is still a horrifying number. But the idea that they are indiscriminately blowing up every single building is just theatre of the absurd.
The arrogance is amazing.
That tiny country could be destroyed by a brisk wind and two battles with bad luck.