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Lemmy World Rules

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Foundation vs Dune (media.kbin.social)
submitted 1 year ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Both of these are terrible takes on the books.

Spice is not a solution in dune in fact the whole 4th book and the end of the third are centered around forcing humanity to wean itself off spice so that it may evolve.

The central concept is that humanity must not depend on machine or drugs or complicated eugenics and must instead look inwards and improve itself by facing hardship.

In foundation (at least the start) the complicated maths is essentially there to prove that all establishments fail and survival requires constant change. Very differently from dune foundation sees technological superiority as key to this and importantly the ability for society to change in order to support the technological progress.

Even if you don't agree with the above neither book aims to "fight imperialist bullshit" if anything they both quite staunchly support the idea of a benevolent dictator controlling all.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It's honestly crazy how many people can read Dune and completely misunderstand the themes of the book.

Though to be fair, it sometimes feels like Frank himself didn't fully understand what themes he was going for. Books 1-3 were staunchly "Beware of heroes, charismatic leaders will lead you to evil and despair", then in GEoD, we find that literally the only hope for humanity was millenia of oppression by a totalitarian government.

But either of those two takes is still wildly better than "spice saves the universe" lol

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

It wasn't the qctual only hope, just the only path Paul and Leto could see, and we know they aren't omniscient

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Dune has one of the most complex (and necessarily logical) universe in it. I'm not surprised every reader found different themes more fitting.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Dune had no good guys, none at all.

Everyone was out for themselves or their narrow view of what was just and best for humanity from their simplistic and self-centered perspective.

Leto 2 was the exception because he was out for his narrow view of what was best for humanity from his broad, self-centered perspective that still didn't really lead anywhere.

The actual point of the books is that no ideal survives the test of real time, and over time civilization tends to ossify, so we are doomed to catastrophe by our very nature.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Or is Dune about the folly of different types of dictatorship; sadistic, benevolent, religious or machiavellian? Taking only the first book (because that's as far as I've read) every leader is thwarted or confined by the consequences or weakness of their own style of leadership.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I read an interview where frank said that his intention was for Dune to be a cautionary tale about the dangers of charismatic leaders (which is to say, the "classic" hero archetype). Which - for the first book - tracks pretty well. The free are basically just used as cannon fodder for Paul to win back his power (and a lot more), then when he wins, he sets them loose on the universe because he can't control them.

The trouble I have with that though is that he goes on to contradict that point in later books, but I won't get into that because I don't want to spoil anything for you

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

bitch better have my giant exo-foreskin

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Ok but to be fair they were using spice for like 5000 years?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

I'll let you all guess which one was published in the 50s and which one was published in the 60s.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Thing is, the Asimov Foundation universe could actually fit in the "past" of the Dune universe.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

In the non-canon book Psychohistorical Crisis, the Dune universe is part of the past of the Foundation universe. The Fremon are known as the "Frightful People" to historians.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Don’t the Dune universe have Mentats?

So, maths and drugs

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

But the mentats are also on drugs, aren't they?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Sapho juice.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think Dune has very many themes, but the biggest one is the dangers of religion (which is not really portrayed in the movie I think)

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The 2022 movie covers the first half of the first book and that theme only really comes into its own in books 2 and 3.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

vs The Expanse: we are headed for some bleak imperialist nonsense but humanity's salvation will come from... Nevermind, we're fucked.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Just most of us, except Amos. Amos will be fine.