this post was submitted on 18 Mar 2025
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[–] [email protected] 33 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

I see no paradox here. Yes, the rubrics change over time, making morality relative, but the motivation (empathy) remains constant, meaning you can evaluate morality in absolute terms.

A simple analog can be found in chess, an old game that’s fairly well-defined and well-understood compared to ethics. Beginners in chess are sometimes confused when they hear masters evaluate moves using absolute terms — e.g. “this move is more accurate than that move.

Doesn’t that suggest a known optimum — i.e., the most accurate move? Of course it does, but we can’t actually know for sure what move is best until the game is near its end, because finding it is hard. Otherwise the “most accurate” move is never anything more than an educated guess made by the winningest minds/software of the day.

As a result, modern analysis is especially good at picking apart historic games, because it’s only after seeing the better move that we can understand the weaknesses of the one we once thought was best.

Ethical absolutism is similarly retrospective. Every paradigm ever proposed has flaws, but we absolutely can evaluate all of them comparatively by how well their outcomes express empathy. Let the kids cook.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago) (2 children)

Honestly, those two points don't seem incompatible to me. For example:

Teaching the history of fashion to undergrads in 1985 is bizarre because:

  1. They insist that standards of dress are entirely relative. Being dressed decently is a cultural construct; some cultures wear hardly any clothing whatsoever and being nude is a completely normal, default way of presenting yourself.
  2. And yet when I walk into class with my dick and balls hanging out, they all get extremely offended and the coeds threaten to call the police.

(And yes I changed the year because I'm sick of so many of these issues being brought up as though "the kids these days" are the problem, when so often these are issues that have been around LITERALLY FOREVER.)

I'm not trying to dunk on this Henry Shelvin guy -- I'm certain that he knows a lot more about philosophy than me, and has more interesting thoughts about morals than I do. And I'm also not going to judge someone based on a tweet...aside from the obvious judgement that they are using Twitter, lol. But as far as takes go, this one kinda sucks.

*edit: I'll add that I hope this professor is taking this opportunity to explain what the difference is between morals being relative vs being subjective, which is an issue that has come up in this very thread. Especially since I bet a lot of his students have only heard the term "moral relativism" being used by religious conservatives who accuse you of being a moral relativist because you don't live by the Bible. I know that was definitely the case for me.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 22 hours ago (7 children)

And yet when I walk into class with my dick and balls hanging out, they all get extremely offended and the coeds threaten to call the police.

Cancel culture today is out of control.

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[–] [email protected] 28 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (5 children)

I've had people, presumably young, argue with me on here about politics and morals. For example, I say the right to abortion is a political issue. Been screamed out that it's not a political issue because a woman's right to an abortion is a moral issue. Yeah, I agree, but the argument is still political. Some believe abortion is murder and that they're right. That's politics.

It's like they have no sense that other views exist, and opposing views do not constitute politics. "I'm on the right side of this thing so it's not politics!" As if I'm somehow lowering the debate to mere... something?

That was one of the first things I got confused by on lemmy. Am I making sense? Just crawled in from work and I'm wasted tired.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

It's also a health issue. It involves choices about life, not unlike someone in a coma or another situation where they are unable to make a conscious choice about whether to continue or deny treatment.

One argument in favor of abortion I recall reading was comparing it to donating an organ while you're still alive. You are under no obligation of donating anything, of risking your life to save another, even if you are literally the only person on Earth that can save the other. If medical professionals have to respect those choices, they should also respect the choice of mothers who decide to end an undesired pregnancy

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 23 hours ago (2 children)

The owning class wants to be the only class doing politics. So they brainwash the proles into thinking politics is bad.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 23 hours ago

And making people believe preserving the status quo is not political but changing it is

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

But they are moral arguments, unless politics is added into the discussion. Let me give you a different example. If I believe people are entitled to the fruits of their labor then that's a moral point. If I believe the government should enforce everyone getting their fruits, that's political.

If I were to believe abortion is wrong then that can be a moral point. However if I think the government should take a stand on the matter, that's political.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The point they were trying to make (I believe, and this specific argument) is that the entire basis of the opposing argument is entirely based on religion and pretty much by definition specious. There is no sky daddy looking over your shoulder, and this any morality you base on its existence is inheritetly flawed at best.

What there is are women who need timely access to medical care or their lives are at risk. This is a tangible and real threat.

So treating the issue as "Politics" only serves to dignify the flawed morality of one side while letting women die.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 23 hours ago

So treating the issue as "Politics" only serves to dignify the flawed morality of one side while letting women die.

Your earlier paragraphs don't provide any evidence for this point.

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[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

post-structuralism has done a lot to attack the basic idea that something like "right" and "wrong" even exist in the first place, outside of the mind of the observer.

I'm kinda pissed about that btw.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 day ago

viewing disagreement as moral monstrosity

This should be the slogan of public social media.

[–] [email protected] 45 points 1 day ago (4 children)

Hah! Cool to see Henry pop up on my feed. I knew this guy back when he was a grad student. And as somebody that also teaches ethics, he is dead on. Undergrads are not only believe all morality is relative and that this is necessary for tolerance and pluralism (it's not), but are also insanely judgmental if something contradicts their basic sense of morality.

Turns out, ordinary people's metaethics are highly irrational.

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