this post was submitted on 05 Mar 2024
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I made a blog post discussing my biggest issues with Lemmy and why I am kind of done with it as a software.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Yes! This blog post is fantastic. I read your article through this archive link (since my phone is being finicky with the direct site) and loved it and I'm glad you wrote it! You totally nailed it on every point and voiced a lot of things I've noticed and concerns I've had.
On the topic of non-anonymous reports: I've definitely already found myself hesitating or declining to make reports I feel should be made purely because they're not anonymous. Sometimes because the people I want to report are admins. I've already had weird situations of people following me around to other posts because they disagree with me and I don't want to add to that type of thing. Although I can understand that there are some potential upsides to being able to tell who is making reports, like to prevent misuse or spam... I dunno.

Thanks a lot for sharing it with us here! and thank you for the warning at the top about mentioning CSAM - and for calling it CSAM and not the other, worse, seemingly more prevelent term. I appreciate it and I appreciate you! :)

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Domain blocks are always publicly visible.

Mod logs are always publicly visible in the public mod log.

What? It is crucial for the users, not a bug.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 8 months ago (1 children)

It can become a source of targeted harassment, as it has on the rest of the fediverse before.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (3 children)

Censorship and targeted sliencing of users are the source of bad moderation. To top it off, the mod can target and harrass the banned user and we wouldn't know bc of censorship if allowed.

targeted harassment

  1. It is about the anonymity of moderator, not about modlog

  2. Quit this job as moderator if you can't take it

[–] [email protected] 15 points 8 months ago (3 children)

if the social prescription to harassment of moderators is "quit because you're a baby" then you're going to have many fewer pleasant spaces on the Fediverse in which to exist—because yeah, a lot of people will just quit. i am agnostic on the public modlog overall, but this is an obvious concern with it that i'm not convinced can just be dismissed idly. i obviously have better things to do than a thankless, payless job in which harassment would be dismissed like that.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

This blog post by a Lemmy user who accidentally uploaded his ID and dealt with the nightmare after describes in great detail the ridiculous steps instance admins need to take to remove images from the backend image server that Lemmy depends on. (as well touches upon the developer behavior aspect I will highlight later.)

~~You misgendered the author of that post, they use they/them pronouns.~~

Edit: I was mistaken about who the author of that post was.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 8 months ago

I couldn't find their pronouns listed anywhere, but it was my bad to assume regardless. Fixed it, my apologies.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Do they? The linked blog's biography is written with masculine pronouns.

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[–] [email protected] 26 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (6 children)

There are a lot of good points here, I appreciate the time you put into it.

As an end user of both Lemmy and Mastodon, it's always an eye opener to see how developers greet user requests and suggestions with curt or snarky replies. Even "Why don't you open an issue on our source tracker" will often effectively shut down suggestions from less tech savvy newcomers.

My own concerns are more on my own level, though. It resonates with me when you write —

The Fediverse has its own existing cultures that thrive here. And when you enter a space that already exists you need to be mindful of that to prevent issues from occurring.

I've seen a few user migration waves, and I think your description of (some) Lemmy users who just want a drop-in Reddit replacement is on point. Mastodon has had its share of Twitterati who surged in trying to recreate their previous circles and tone. Obviously, it's a generalisation but we do need to face the problem.

The transition from a walled garden environment like Reddit or Twitter — moderated by professionals or enthusiasts, and algorithmically curated — to a federated space with carefully cultivated etiquettes will never be like simply picking up a conversation in another UI.

I'd be interested how a project like Sublinks would/could accommodate the existing fediverse cultures, and hopefully bridge the cognitive gap that seems to exist between threadiverse and fediverse?

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Very interesting post, very long but also interesting. I also agree with most of the points.

But I wonder why there is no mention of /kbin which has been a compatible alternative to Lemmy even during the Reddit exodus. It's also written in PHP which many people should have a much easier time to contribute to than Lemmy's Rust.

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Does anyone know of any Sublinks instances? The main page for it speaks in present tense, but I haven't found any active instances. (aside from the demo, of course)

I apologize for my stupidity:

this is me

[–] [email protected] 20 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (3 children)

It hasnt been released yet, still working towards parity (but getting there soon)

The first instance using it will likely be sublinks.art and some other instances will be switching over from lemmy when it hits parity like programming.dev and literature.cafe

[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 months ago

Alright, thanks!

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I feel the same way about Lemmy software, instances, and the Fediverse as a whole. Appreciate your post and efforts.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Maybe Sublinks could be(come) that new platform you guys have been searching for, re: Beehaw thinking about leaving Lemmy? 🤔

I just hope it will be compatible with the available Lemmy apps (Voyager in particular) 😓

Edit: Or PieFed I guess 😊

[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 months ago

It will have lemmy API compatibility on release so it will be

[–] [email protected] 20 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (6 children)

These are some really good points. I’m personally more interested in the development of PieFed than SubLinks due to the focus on making it easy to contribute, the developer cares about usability and mod tools, its in Python, and the developer posts dev blogs and answers questions on mastodon https://join.piefed.social/blog/

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago

Piefed looks very promising indeed

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 months ago

This post summarizes my thoughts on the issues with lemmy perfectly.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I'm relieved to hear you'll still be running your instance despite these issues! Are you thinking of potentially moving the Literature Cafe forums to Sublinks?

I definitely hear you on the moderation difficulties... with the Fediverse being as far-reaching as it is, good moderation tools are essential and it seems like Lemmy simply doesn't have these available.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 8 months ago (2 children)

I will migrate it to sublinks as soon as I can.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago

OK, I'll stay posted for the new site!

[–] [email protected] 9 points 8 months ago (2 children)

The link offers a download instead of serving an HTML? I'm on mobile Firefox (I doubt it matters).

[–] [email protected] 8 points 8 months ago (2 children)

It might be an issue with the activitypub plugin, https://jewy.blog/b/1T try this shortlink version instead

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

I'm still having the same issue with that link, as well, for whatever reason. If I go to jewy.blog, I see a regular webpage that shows properly and lists a link with the same title. When I click that link, it gives me the same .bin file. I'm on Android and tried Chrome, Firefox, and Firefox Focus.

*Editing to add that I tried viewing it through archive.org and it shows up properly that way. Weird!

Here is the link for anyone who may want it: https://web.archive.org/web/20240305150657/https://jewy.blog/2024/03/04/my-love-hate-relationship-with-lemmy/

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Interesting. I might have to remove the activitypub plugin regardless then.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

If by any chance there's any other information I can give you about my setup that may help you, or anything you'd like me to try or test, please feel free to let me know and I'd be happy to! :)

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago

That link had no issues loading the HTML

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago

Same here. Firefox offers a download of the .bin file, Chrome just displays a page with the code that I'm guessing is in the file. I'm glad it wasn't just me!

[–] [email protected] 59 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (5 children)

👏👏👏👏👏

Well said. I don't disagree with a single point you made, and some of it echos concerns I've had since day 1. And extra points for calling out .ml as lemmygrad-lite. I think I've called it exactly that as well.

The only thing I really have to add is on the topic of toxicity. Like you, I'm an instance admin and have a bird's eye view of a lot of behavior patterns. I've recently started wondering how many people are here because they're too toxic for regular social media rather than because they want to be here. I won't guess an actual number, but I would say it's not insignificant.

I'm firmly the latter case: I want to be here, I want this to succeed, and I'm trying to put in the work toward that result. And I've interacted with lots and lots of people in the same boat. But, like you, I'm also growing disillusioned for many of the same reasons.

On the bright side, I've gotten much less rusty as a developer after having to write scrips and tools to fill in the massive gaps in moderation features.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

I've recently started wondering how many people are here because they're too toxic for regular social media rather than because they want to be here.

This has largely been my operating assumption as well since day one when I came over during the Reddit API lockdown. I was fairly active on a NSFW alt up until recently and I've actually seen dozens of comments from new users mentioning that the only reason they were here on Lemmy was because they were banned from Reddit and had no other viable options. They were always an asshole to the posters and the reality is that with a lower population of users is that there aren't enough other voices to drown out these people yet and you end up with a feedback loop of toxicity.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

the reality is that with a lower population of users is that there aren't enough other voices to drown out these people

Yep. That, plus the jerks are always the loudest among any crowd.

That's one of the big perks of running my own instance. It's been a site rule from the start that it's absolutely not there to be a refuge because you're banned elsewhere. And I do ban toxic accounts (local and federated) very quickly. Lol, if .ml is "Lemmygrad-lite" mine can probably be described as "Beehaw-lite".

[–] [email protected] 15 points 8 months ago

I once wondered aloud here about if anybody else had noticed a lot of toxic members from certain communities, only to receive replies from members in those communities claiming that it was all fine and there wasn't any toxicity. Then I'd look at their history and notice they were a very toxic person. From my limited point of view I can say there might be some credence to your statement.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 8 months ago (1 children)

The only thing I really have to add is on the topic of toxicity. Like you, I’m an instance admin and have a bird’s eye view of a lot of behavior patterns. I’ve recently started wondering how many people are here because they’re too toxic for regular social media rather than because they want to be here. I won’t guess an actual number, but I would say it’s not insignificant.

That's unfortunately a big issue with alternative social media platforms and without tools to combat them it goes bad really bad. I agree completely.

[–] [email protected] 29 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Honestly coming here and starting my own instance and providing help for other instances and stuff has reignited my long lost love of computers and open source stuff. The passion for it is thankfully coming back.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 8 months ago

That was me with developing. I used to do it as my day job before moving to infrastructure - now all I develop at work are scripts and the occasional lookup tool.

I do kinda wish I'd chosen something other than NodeJS to be my daily driver, lol, but it does what I need well enough. Haven't really had a base it can't cover (yet?).

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