So to get this straight: An advocate for the democratic movement against the religious fascist regime in Iran, who was officially declared a terrorist by the iranian regime, was (almost successfully) assassinated and the people in this thread do not condemn or even celebrate it, because he was an elected far right politician almost ten years ago.
this post was submitted on 09 Nov 2023
0 points (NaN% liked)
Europe
8484 readers
1 users here now
News/Interesting Stories/Beautiful Pictures from Europe 🇪🇺
(Current banner: Thunder mountain, Germany, 🇩🇪 ) Feel free to post submissions for banner pictures
Rules
(This list is obviously incomplete, but it will get expanded when necessary)
- Be nice to each other (e.g. No direct insults against each other);
- No racism, antisemitism, dehumanisation of minorities or glorification of National Socialism allowed;
- No posts linking to mis-information funded by foreign states or billionaires.
Also check out [email protected]
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
@Drama_durch_Lama @gigachad yep pretty much. Just because you dont agree with someone's politics doesnt mean its oke to cheer them being shot in the face. The only time thats oke is during a war.
I'm not to familiar with spanish politics so I will refrain from commenting on it. In my home country far right politicians from 10 years ago would be normal rightwing today, policy wise that is. We had a far-right politician here who got shot and murdered 20 years ago. Today he'd be far left.
Wow, that's too bad. Anyway, who wants some pizza?
Violence against elected officials is not compatible with democracy. To those cheering at this act of violence: you are as violent and authoritarian as the people you loathe. Shame on you.
He is not a currently elected official. He hasn't been in office since 2014. He isn't even running for any office. He is retired and "active" as a lobbyist for the 'National Council of Resistance of Iran' and 'European Friends of Israel'.
While no motive has been established, I doubt it's related to spanish politics since he is basically irrelevant there. If the attempt was politically motivated, it's way more likely to be related to the current events in Israel and Gaza. Or his general stance on the current Iranian government. He is considered a terrorist by the Iranian government.
So there is no threat to democacy and people cheering at this are just happy that a shitty person got hurt. Which still isn't the best mentality.
yeah if they don't die it's not democratic
Hitler was elected.
I don't want to condone violence, but I feel like Spain knows a little too well what happens when we let fascists get comfy...
Accepting violence as a valid political tool for anything other than an absolute last resort is the exact thing that leads to complete and utter chaos. You have to keep in mind that your side is probably not the only side with guns, and those on the other side are also telling themselves that there are plenty of examples of what happens when you let communists get comfy.
Now, I would obviously say that one of these sides is much more in the wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that, unless you want a politics of everyone shooting at each other, political violence should essentially always be condemned, even if it's against your political foes.
That pacifistic stance is based on ideals, but ignores the reality of history and politics. Not everyone shares those ideals, nor are they objectively right. Violence is the only good tool against fascism. Where it fails to stop it, non-violent means would also fail.
I refuse to feel the same way about bad things happening to bigots as I would if they happened to better people.
The insistence that anyone should is misguided at best and abusive at worst. It's okay to have different opinions based on people's words and actions. That's not prejudice. It's just regular judice.
Sorry to hear he’s in a stable condition.
Jesus dude. I know right wingers can be absolute cunts but wishing death on them? Really?
The only good fascist is a dead fascist.
Yeah.
I don’t tolerate the intolerant.
Wishing him dead is fine in my book (since I don't believe in magic anyhow) however encouraging assassination of political figures (as this may turn out to be) is not wise because in future it will be your guy who gets assassinated.
It is in everyone's interest to have peaceful elections to sort out our differences.
"our guys" are being assasinated every day, dying from tough working conditions, starving away on the streets, getting killed by police, dying in another pointless war to see which group of rich people get to exploit a certain corner of the earth, being led to suicide by homophobic and transphobic retoric spread by these people...
There is a difference between not tolerating their shit and wishing people's death.
Edit: spelling
Nah. fuck em
If you tolerate the intolerant, the tolerant society shifts to intolerant.
Violence is supposed to be the last resort to deal with them, I don't see how this is in any way helpful, good or justified.
The last resort according to whom? It's no law of nature or physics.
The last resort according to basic self preservation.
The other side have guns too. What do you think they're gonna do when you start killing their people?
they're already shooting. that's why we're mad in the first place.
And sure, shoot at the fucker that's a threat to you. That's no justification to shoot at persons 2 and 3 that had similar belief systems but wasn't shooting at you.
The right is already directly and indirectly killing innocent people.
Oh, the entire right wing is killing people? So how much blood is on the hands of the elderly couple down the road that go to church every Sunday?
Such rhetoric is not only incredibly immature and lacking of insight, it encourages the extremism that leads to violence. Grow up.
The right as in the political right wing in the context of Spain.
Ohhh okay. So, the political right wing of Spain, which is far less prone to political violence than that of, say, America?
Do you not understand how introducing violence to that equation is an even worse idea?
Violence is already in the equation. Do you want there to be no response to the attacks on marginalized groups?
No, you said right wing in the context of Spain, of which there has been only one single incident since the 1980s, and no one was hurt or killed in that singular instance.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_terrorism_in_Spain
Violence is very much not in the equation in the context you yourself mentioned.
The national police did nothing wrong during the catalan referendum and riots. No politicians are advocating for the genocide of refugees by sending them back to the opressive regimes they're escaping from. No politicians are advocating for the genocide of queer people by spreading harmful retoric that leads them to suicide. There are no apologists of the Franco regime in the government.
The national police did nothing wrong during the catalan referendum and riots.
Wasn't a far-right thing.
No politicians are advocating for the genocide of refugees by sending them back to the opressive regimes they’re escaping from.
Executing politicians would not solve this. It would instead make the anti immigration crowd violent.
No politicians are advocating for the genocide of queer people by spreading harmful retoric that leads them to suicide.
Spain is one of the world leaders in LGBTQ+ freedom. There is too much pro LGBTQ+ support here to make this a viable campaign platform. Making martyrs out of anti LGBTQ+ politicians will boost support for anti LGBTQ+ stances, not lower it.
There are no apologists of the Franco regime in the government.
And those government officials are about as popular as holocaust deniers at a bah mitzvah. Franco apologism is literally illegal here.
One side is gonna lose in the end. That is all that matters. The world is ruled with violence. Non-violence only is beneficial to those currently in power.
Basic self-preservation as you put it requires violence. How are you going to preserve yourself when you let people run around who want to opress or kill you?
One side is gonna lose in the end.
And there are plenty of times where this is done non violently.
Basic self-preservation as you put it requires violence.
Yes. As a last resort. That doesn't mean never using violence. It means using it for self preservation, not just because you disagree with them.
As a last resort is too late. If you can use violence successfully, it justifies itself. Waiting for when it's time for the last resort is too late. You're not going to stop the nazis in the spring of 1933, you would have needed to kill them in the 20s, a decade before they came to power. The same applies to any political movement.
You’re not going to stop the nazis in the spring of 1933, you would have needed to kill them in the 20s, a decade before they came to power.
Except such thinking was how we got the Nazis in the first place. Hitler co-opted unions and parties who were extremised by such responses, and these were the basis of the Nazi party.
So you do not tolerate yourself?
You might want to read this blog post on this subject. What I'm quoting here is the central message, but do yourself a favor and actually read the rest and don't just respond based on this quote
Tolerance is not a moral absolute; it is a peace treaty. Tolerance is a social norm because it allows different people to live side-by-side without being at each other’s throats. It means that we accept that people may be different from us, in their customs, in their behavior, in their dress, in their sex lives, and that if this doesn’t directly affect our lives, it is none of our business. But the model of a peace treaty differs from the model of a moral precept in one simple way: the protection of a peace treaty only extends to those willing to abide by its terms. It is an agreement to live in peace, not an agreement to be peaceful no matter the conduct of others. A peace treaty is not a suicide pact.
When viewed through this lens, the problems above have clear answers. The antisocial member of the group, who harms other people in the group on a regular basis, need not be accepted; the purpose of your group’s acceptance is to let people feel that they have a home, and someone who actively tries to thwart this is incompatible with the broader purpose of that acceptance. Prejudice against Nazis is not the same as prejudice against Blacks, because one is based on people’s stated opposition to their neighbors’ lives and safety, the other on a characteristic that has nothing to do with whether they’ll live in peace with you or not. Freedom of religion means that people have the right to have their own beliefs, but you have that same right; you are under no duty to tolerate an attempt to impose someone else’s religious laws on you.
[…]
If we interpreted tolerance as a moral absolute, or if our rules of conduct were entirely blind to the situation and to previous actions, then we would regard any measures taken against an aggressor as just as bad as the original aggression. But through the lens of a peace treaty, these measures have a different moral standing: they are tools which can restore the peace.
They are a little ahead of schedule if our goal is to revive last century's events exactly 100 years afterwards, the civil was was from '36 to '39.
Count the years from the beginning of the revo to the civil war. Count the years from then to 24 and reflect in America’s devolution.