this post was submitted on 26 Feb 2024

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-33

They hate democracy almost as much as Republicans. (lemmy.world)

submitted 8 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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Moderates would rather lose to fascists than compromise with leftists and progressives.

(page 2) 41 comments

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

Or just hand the election over to the guy who is going to push the pedal down all that stuff you claim to care about. We’re trying to minimize our losses as best we can, and right now, Biden seems to be the best that Democrats can muster up. Not the best situation to be in, but he’s still miles ahead of Trump on everything. Any issue you care about, well you’ll be reading about them in history books as an afterthought if Trump comes to power… if history books haven’t already been censored to just ignore any controversial issues altogether. Who the hell even needs history books when we have the Bible, the only source of information a citizen would ever need, that and TNN, the Trump News Network.

If third parties really want to make a change, they need to go after smaller, local elections, you build up a movement from the ground up. Any third parties in national elections that have almost no presence anywhere else are highly suspect and likely just there for the attention and/or to draw votes from one candidate or another.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago (3 children)

I live in a solidly red state. The odds of it flipping in the next 20 years is nil. If I vote 3rd party, it

tells the entrenched parties that I'd rather have a lunatic than either of their candidates and
cause more infighting in the RNC as they will assume the lost vote was meant for them.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago

Sad that the system disincentives people in safe states to take their vote seriously. I get it, though. I protest voted in a safe state in 2016. Just... remember that if things go south, the knowledge that your vote was pointless doesn't always erase all of the guilt.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Your third party vote count will be below the lizardman constant and will be ignored.

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[–] [email protected] -1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

We’re trying to minimize our losses as best we can, and right now,

You mean "forever".

If third parties really want to make a change, they need to go after smaller, local elections, you build up a movement from the ground up.

We've tried. Moderates fight us there too.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago (11 children)

not where im from. third parties do decently in local races.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 months ago (3 children)

“I’m going to vote against the dude that is giving weapons to Israel, who gives weak-effort strongly worded letters to try to stop being assholes in the butchering of Gaza. Nevermind that in doing so it ensures the win of the fascist megalomaniac who will shove weapons faster, and has given full throated support to Israel, along with the party that says that everyone in Gaza should die. That’ll teach them. Fuckin moderates, compromise with me or I’ll help Gaza burn faster.”

[–] [email protected] 8 points 8 months ago (4 children)

"Fix everything NOW or I help the fascists make everything worse!"

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Thats all I’m hearing. “Everything must be 100% or I’ll turn this bus and speed back to Fascistland, so help me!”

[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago

We tried compromising, you guys didn’t want to.

Now that you need us you pretend to care

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[–] [email protected] -1 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Ok now do moderates.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago

The GOP is running out of cash saving the orange fascist from the results of his own actions. They'll go bankrupt and then we'll have a one party system where everyone will have to vote for whatever our party brass puts on the ballot for us.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Easy.

“We like how things are and while we like some of what you offer and suggest you want it all or nothing which is too much of a shock so we’ll stick with what we know. But right now we’re literally trying to fight off a fascist Hitler wanna-be, how about we fucking discus this later?”

[–] [email protected] -2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

suggest you want it all or nothing

"Don't block strikes and don't support genocide." is "all or nothing"?

But right now we’re literally trying to fight off a fascist Hitler wanna-be, how about we fucking discus this later?”

When? You didn't want to discuss it at any point in the last four years.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

But right now we’re literally trying to fight off a fascist Hitler wanna-be, how about we fucking discus this later?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 8 months ago (1 children)

When? You didn’t want to discuss it at any point in the last four years.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Considering Biden was on the picket line with the auto strikers, I disagree. Considering Biden is trying to shovel weapons to a Taiwan and to Ukraine, and yes unfortunately to Israel as well, he at least has criticized and made requests for ceasefires and hostage exchanges.

Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Is there more they could do? 100% yes. Is it better than it was 4 years ago with what Orange? Hands down.

Republicans would be 1000000x worse. And clearly you want that, over what the other side has done. Be honest with yourself and stop wasting our time.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Considering Biden was on the picket line with the auto strikers, I disagree. Considering Biden is trying to shovel weapons to a Taiwan and to Ukraine, and yes unfortunately to Israel as well, he at least has criticized and made requests for ceasefires and hostage exchanges.

Oh by "discussion" you thought I meant you say what you think, get your way and the rest of us just shut up and deal with it? That isn't what I meant. I hope I've clarified that for you. This right here is a discussion and it's only happening because you need something from me. The moment you don't need my vote you'll go right back to the kinds of "discussions" you're talking about.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

You asked compromise. He did shit. He did a fuckton more than the other fuck did or will do.

Right now we are literally fighting off miniHitler. After that is done we can talk about what MORE they can do. And I personally will be demanding more.

Once the orange fuck is defeated.

Until then? Fuck off with the purity bullshit. You’re wasting my time, your time, and everyone else with a lick of sense in your quest to install Orange back into the White House.

Who, again, is WORSE and completely opposite to everything you stand for. But you’d clearly want that.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 8 months ago (1 children)

So once trump is gone you guys can continue to ignore us?

This is the battlefield and you want our help, but want to give nothing.

Just like you have for years, just like you did in 2020

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[–] [email protected] -1 points 8 months ago

You asked compromise. He did shit.

He stood somewhere? That's your example of "compromise"?

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Moderates would rather lose to fascists than compromise with leftists and progressives.

You got close, but considering voting third party pretty much assures Trump wins, meme logic aside, it's more like:

Leftists and progressives would rather lose to fascists than compromise with moderates.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Leftists and progressives did compromise though. A lot of us voted for Biden in the 2020 general election. Zero compromises came back the other way. As we head into the election there's two major issues Biden could compromise on.

Don't support genocide.
Don't block strikes.

But the fact that moderates aren't interested in compromising on either of these things and has failed to provide any other meaningful opportunities for compromise means:

Moderates would rather lose to fascists than compromise with leftists and progressives.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 8 months ago (1 children)

4th panel is what you're going to get when a republican wins the white house because "leftists" voted for a spoiler candidate.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 8 months ago (19 children)

In the USA, voting Third Party is just helping Republicans, aka. the Fascists.

If you want to change something, organise and unionise.

But dont throw away Democracy, just to be the smuggest guy in the concentraition-camp in the end...

[+] [email protected] -7 points 8 months ago (1 children)

If you want to change something, organise and unionise.

Moderates sabotage those efforts.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 8 months ago (3 children)

But they occasionally work. Name 1 3rd party candidate that has won the presidential election and shut the fuck up.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago

Make 1 president that won’t win if y’all keep it up and sue the fuck up

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Abe Lincoln could be argued as a 3rd party candidate who won since prior to him it was mainly the whigs and democrats as the two main parties.

Now if you asked what grassroots-led 3rd party candidate overwhelmed the two major parties in a shocker of an election, that obviously never happened.

The last Whig president*, Zachary Taylor, was a political outsider that beat out an experienced politician (familiar?). He was running under the Whig banner because the whigs didn’t have a solution for the issue of slavery- Zachary Taylor was a crude extremely rich celebrity soldier and slave owner who never voted. He was ambiguous on his stance on the future of slavery in America. But the anti slavery wing of the whigs hated this. Taylor ruined the Whig party and it never recovered. Lincoln picked up the anti-slavery whig voters, creating the Republican Party.

The modern day Republicans are only held together with trump and I’m not sure what will happen to their party afterwards. Maybe there’ll be another party “flip” when the Republican Party crumbles, a new more left wing party will rise up as the democrats absorb the former Republican voters, causing the progressive democrats to flee the party. This would be the next success of a “3rd party” candidate. But this won’t happen as long as trump continues to be on the ballot.

*there was Millard Fillmore as the 13th, but this was because Taylor died in office and Fillmore succeeded him as president.

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[–] [email protected] -3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

You just sailed over the point where moderates fight us and it's considered fair game. We fight moderates and they have a meltdown. Moderates are relying on leftist and progressives to win general elections while fucking them over at every opportunity.

Surely you can see the foolishness of that strategy yes?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

And yet it's irrelevant. I have no reason to engage that point, because people immediately being horribly hurt by looming electoral consequences supersedes the importance of long-term systemic change.

Nobody disagrees that systemic change is needed, but it is not the most important or immediate problem.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 8 months ago

Free pass for moderates. Lectures for everybody else. Got it.

No thanks.

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

Unfortunately, many countries have First-Past-The-Post voting systems, so voting for a third party is often, mathematically, basically the same as voting for the competition.

It's called "The Spoiler Effect", if you want to look it up, and it's why we have many of the two party problems we have today in modern democracy. Ranked Choice/Single Transferrable Vote are much better systems.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago (3 children)

Well, many democracies do not vote for their president directly – parliament elects one. They are usually from the strongest party, although if enough smaller parties can get a majority, they can elect the president.

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