Men's Liberation
This community is first and foremost a feminist community for men and masc people, but it is also a place to talk about men’s issues with a particular focus on intersectionality.
Rules
Everybody is welcome, but this is primarily a space for men and masc people
Non-masculine perspectives are incredibly important in making sure that the lived experiences of others are present in discussions on masculinity, but please remember that this is a space to discuss issues pertaining to men and masc individuals. Be kind, open-minded, and take care that you aren't talking over men expressing their own lived experiences.
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Be proactive in forming a productive discussion. Constructive criticism of our community is fine, but if you mainly criticize feminism or other people's efforts to solve gender issues, your post/comment will be removed.
Keep the following guidelines in mind when posting:
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Assume good faith
Do not call other submitters' personal experiences into question.
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Slurs, hate speech, and negative stereotyping towards marginalized groups will not be tolerated.
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Do not participate if you have been linked to this discussion from elsewhere. Similarly, links to elsewhere on the threadiverse must promote constructive discussion of men’s issues.
Recommended Reading
- The Will To Change: Men, Masculinity, And Love by bell hooks
- Politics of Masculinities: Men in Movements by Michael Messner
Related Communities
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I should also note. The concept you are referring to as "they can't think for themselves" is called False Consciousness. The idea that oppressive systems like patriarchy and capitalism create this sense that you are acting with complete free will but you actually are following a set of expectations and thoughts and even language that feedback loops on itself in a never ending reinforcement loop.
It's like, your right at the core of what your saying. There is truth there. But you use such anti women language rather than targeting the systems, ideologies and incentives that make both men and women this way.
Isn't that culture in general? Not saying it doesn't apply to "the patriarchy", but this definition is a bit too wide, IMO.
Hyperbole.
It's a spectrum, for sure. I wouldn't be who I am without the influence of others.
That said, women are way more likely to go along with what the crowd (their peers) is doing than I am. If they disagree with the crowd, they are way less likely to put those disagreements into action than I am.
They cannot think for themselves and it's encouraged by those who refuse to acknowledge it. It's not a problem unique to women, but they suffer from it more than men because women have been conditioned to operate as one unit.
Have you talked to a therapist that specializes in cognitive behavioral therapy about your views here? You might be happier in the long run if you do.
I can tell you're upset because I'm saying things you don't like. It's okay, I see it all the time and don't expect more from you people on these forums.
Goodbye. Easy block.
You’re displaying really obvious signs of distress. You aren’t coming across as mentally healthy.
Brother, you are right now repeating the most common, basic and wrong male anti feminist talking points as you talk about how women are so baby brained that they can't think.
It ain't hyperbole. It's academic theory. You are so caught up in not using the word you don't like. I am telling you that you don't know what that word means. I explain what it means. You then repeat "no" and then say the same thing but in a misogynist lens.
There's even non misogynist ways to explain the "operating as one unit" borg brain you are talking about. It's just the women's side of patriarchy. That's a built in function of patriarchy. You have a hard time seeing that because you are not a woman and have a flawed concept of the word patriarchy. Do you get what I'm saying?
Saying it's an 'anti-feminist' talking point holds no water when we're describing reality. You're literally supporting my argument by saying that women can't rise above the expectations the patriarchy has put on them. They can't think for themselves.
You're also supporting my notion that you refuse to acknowledge greed and consumerism as being the root cause of these issues because you're so distracted and invested in blaming "the patriarchy."
It's a lot easier for women to blame "the patriarchy," because if they addressed their own greed then they would have to give something up. If all the blame is put on "the patriarchy," then women can continue to consume just as they always have and delude themselves into thinking they're not part of the problem.
Now this is an interesting point to bring up, although it does reinforce my argument. Men are more likely to value autonomy, women are more likely to value homogeny. It's why I said that women have a harder time thinking for themselves than men and why they've been conditioned to operate as one unit.
None of this is up for debate and you haven't disproved any of my points. Even if these ideas aren't acceptable in our social circles, it doesn't mean they don't describe reality.
Stop trying to look good in front of your peers.
You come across as if you never considered that your persoective is just that amd isn't an unbiased reflection of reality.
When people talk about the patriarchy they are talking about the inherent sexism within society that creates all of the issues you are complaining about.
Don't care how I "come across."
It's part of being able to think for myself.
I fully-expect people like you to react the way you are whenever you see it; that's how bad it's gotten.
You are displaying serious signs of narcissism here most especially equating your perspective as unbiased “reality”. That’s a bad sign.
Look. We are talking in circles. So let me leave you off with a quote from one of the most famous feminist writers, Bell Hooks.
It is obvious that many women have appropriated feminism to serve their own ends, especially those white women who have been at the forefront of the movement; but rather than resigning myself to this appropriation I choose to re-appropriate the term ‘feminism’, to focus on the fact that to be ‘feminist’ in any authentic sense of the term is to want for all people, female and male, liberation from sexist role patterns, domination, and oppression. – Ain’t I A Woman: Black Women and Feminism, 1981
Like I said. You are stuck in a mind loop called a false consciousness. I was unable to break you out of it this conversation. I hope that this conversation is a seed in your brain that someday, someone else more able to speak your language waters and sprouts into understanding.
Please understand. You are not talking about "women". You are talking about patriarchy. You are complaining about patriarchy. You are complaining about women who are also stuck in the same patriarchy false consciousness as you are, but from the other side. Your talk about women and greed is a complex intersection of patriarchy and capitalism. They effect each other and support each other.
I genuinely hope you take that extra step towards understanding and abandon your misogynist lens. It is doing more harm to you than you know.
That's the dumbed definition of a word I've seen in quite a while. How about:
"advocating women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes."
They may do it by setting fire to a Theatre just to try to kill a single person, like a terrorist group, but at least this definition fits.
The whole "Feminism is for both sexes" has always been bullshit. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.
They need cognitive behavioral therapy to hopefully break them from the notion that their perception aligns with reality.
Deconstruction is what got me out of that ideological mind prison. I would recommend it.
Sadly they blocked me for suggesting they speak with a therapist. They are showing signs of narcissism here that should be addressed.
While I think a lot of people need therapists, I don't think he is being narcissistic.
It's unfortunately just very natural for false consciousness to be very isolating and resistant to outside interference. He is acting in the way that the culture and ideologies of his life have trained him to act when confronted with a foundational challenge.
Yeah, just re-read my previous comment.
I didn't expect more from you, to be honest.