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Israeli Government Imposes Sanctions on Haaretz, Cuts All Ties and Pulls Advertising
(www.haaretz.com)
this post was submitted on 24 Nov 2024
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I mean... they're both wrong.
No lies detected.
If Schocken is referring to Hamas, then he's out of his mind. Freedom is the last thing Hamas wants for Gaza or Palestine.
If you had grown up in the open air prison camp called Gaza, and wanted to fight for your country, you too would have joined Hamas or one of the smaller militant organizations (PFLP and the like). Think of the average US election discourse: you don't vote whomever, you vote for who's on the ballot, least evil and so on. Same logic applies: when your family is repeatedly traumatized and your country is occupied, you don't join whatever organization western liberals imagine, you pick one of the existing ones and join the fight. Simple as.
Broadly I agree with you that, inasmuch as Hamas enjoys popular support, it is for exactly that reason.
But, that does not mean Hamas is fighting for the freedom and independence of Gaza. They are fighting to push Israel into the sea, and any means to that end is acceptable to them, including putting Gazans in terrible risk.
Any popular movement will never be monolithic. By it's very nature as a popular movement it will contain all sorts. From fanatics and hardliners to opportunists, to idealists, to moderates, to people who had no other choice. So saying "Hamas is fighting for this or that" as if "this or that" is an immutable non-negotiable goal set in stone is ignoring the realities of armed struggle. If anyone is interested in peace, they would need to either completely annihilate Hamas, like Isis was, which the last year has shown is impossible, or more realistically to try to play on the internal dynamics of the factions, hoping to strengthen those that can make peace. For example, Marwan Bargouthi is ex-Fatah, but has worked with Hamas and the PFLP, and is more of a moderate than Sinwar ever was. If Israel was to release him, he could use his fighter credibility to push for peace.
Agreed. Hamas and Israel are locked in a death struggle -- the existence of Hamas depends on a "river Jordan to the sea" hard line position on the extermination of Israel, and Hamas' existence fuels Israeli conservative support for apartheid.
Which is why I think anybody characterizing Hamas as "freedom fighters" is disingenuous. Fighters, certainly, but not for freedom.
Israeli support for apartheid is not dependent on Hamas. Proof: the West Bank.
Sure they just want to die fighting the IDF just so the IDF kill Palestinians while none of our countries does anything to stop this genocide
Say it as many time as you want, history will call them freedom fighter.
When you live in area with no freedom of movement, no freedom of food options, no freedom of trades, and you fight, that it is a freedom fighter.
Your people called movement in South Africa terrorist, called Irish terrorists, called Indian terrorists, called natives terrorists. Called everyone challenge you or support them terrorists.
But at the end history called them freedom fighter.
Respectfully, I disagree. Hamas hasn’t allowed elections in the region since 2007. They are authoritarian, autocratic, Islamist statists with the sole goal of the elimination of Israel. They are not focused on improving the economy of Gaza, or granting freedom to the Gazan people.
That’s exactly why it’s been explicitly stated Likud policy to support them — conservative leadership in Israel wants to see the people of Gaza violently oppressed and stirred against Israel. An enemy on the border serves the conservative agenda.
A peaceful government dedicated to increasing Gazan freedom & independence would not serve Israeli interests, which is why Netanyahu has worked so hard to keep Hamas in charge in Gaza.
Why should they? Israel showed they're going to materially interfere in the elections anyways.
Not defending Hamas tyranny in Gaza, but this is a contradiction right there. A government dedicated to increasing Gazan freedom and independence would not be peaceful, because the only time an Israeli leader attempted to bring peace to the region they fucking killed him.
Gazan independence does not demand violence; it only demands a government that is willing to put down the sword and negotiate, so that Netanyahu and Likud are not emboldened to continually tighten the noose. At least, that's what Netanyahu believes -- that a violent oppressor in Gaza is crucial to the success of Likud.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/20/benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-israel-prime-minister
Like the PA did until 2000 (and since 2006, but you get the idea)? Like Hamas tried to do in 2008 and 2012? Both generally and in this conflict, that's just not how that works. Again, there was only one guy who tried to seriously negotiate and they fucking killed him.
Ah yes, if we just let the authoritarian do whatever he wants he will stop killing us. How very Chamberlain of you. How very Appeasement.
I never said that. I said that Hamas doesn't particularly care about freedom or independence in Gaza, and I stand by that.
Hamas will feed every Palestinian man, woman, and child into the Israeli war machine, if they believe that it will deprive Israel of a hectare of territory. Pushing Israel into the sea is their primary goal. That's their priority. And their aggression will insure that the war machine operates at full capacity, and that it continues to receive the active support of the international community.
Personally, I think the Palestine cause is just. Unfortunately, I think it's also futile. The hard line against Israel is gonna get a lot more people killed, with no positive result for Palestinians. At this point, the best hope for the future of the region is an independent state solution.
I 100% support Palestinian statehood but to deny that Hamas are terrorists is absurd. A true "freedom fighter" would attack only government and military targets and would never condone killing 500+ civilians at a music festival. Do you believe that's acceptable?
Then why aren't you calling Israel and the IDF terrorists?
To get out of this whole mess, this is a textbook no true Scotsman argument. The IRA were freedom fighters and also notorious for killing civilians (car bombs anyone?).
Nah, "freedom fighters" do that shit all the time and "no true freedom fighter" is a fallacy. For example, there are huge political rifts between Poland and Ukraine because of "freedom fighters" on both sides committing massacres, assassinations etc. What one side calls heroes, the other calls terrorists. Same thing for freedom fighters in occupied France, Poland.
Edit: also fuck Hamas those terrorist pieces of dung.
Hamas targets were military targets. More than 33% killed were active IDF soldiers.
The music festival next to a military base was not even supposed to be there. And there were many armed IDF soldiers at the festival (human shields anyone?)
If Hamas wanted civilian casualties they would have pushed into Israeli cities instead of raiding the heavily guarded military bases around the Gaza envelope.
For a more detailed explanation, an Israeli person made this great video https://youtu.be/Pt_1k7nSv1M
"Only two-thirds of the people killed were civilians!" is quite the defense. Impressive.
The US had a civilian casualty rate of 12/13 in Iraq.
The IDF with 70% women and children killed would have a higher civilian casualty rate than Hamas even if literally every single man they killed was an active duty Hamas fighter.
OK, and? You're seriously trying to defend 66% civilian casualties because 70%+ is worse?
Now compare that to the IDF...
I am. Killing civilians is bad, and I don't care who does it. Only on Lemmy do we see galaxy-brains decrying Palestinian deaths while brushing off 66% civilian casualties on the Israeli side.
They planned to and did attack plenty of kibbutzes, slaughtering and kidnapping all civilian inhabitants they could
Their plans were clearly to capture and ransom them. Even Israeli witnesses testify to that, as well as to the fact that the IDF did the vast majority of damage.
You can find reports from journalists that saw were shown security and bodycam footage, that describe something very different. Freedom fighters taking lots of joy in killing civilians, young and old
But I know the story on Hexbear that those were all just Mossad plants
edit: here
A few more recent sources, including some Israeli ones:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-07/israel-hannibal-directive-kidnap-hamas-gaza-hostages-idf/104224430
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231021-israel-settler-israel-forces-killed-hostages-not-hamas/
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-06/ty-article/.premium/idf-probing-death-of-12-hostages-in-beeri-house-shelled-on-orders-of-senior-officer/0000018d-7b6c-d008-a9cd-fbfdb0040000
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officer-recounts-ordering-tank-fire-on-beeri-home-during-hostage-standoff-on-oct-7/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rTQcjyhPOIk
https://youtube.com/watch?v=bjGL0HFTgiU
https://youtube.com/watch?v=GjC0_swYbT4
I'm more than aware that a lot of Israeli civilians killed by friendly fire. But your claim that the IDF "did the vast majority of damage" is exactly the hexbear fantasy I'm talking about.
You're lying to yourself, and others. You might think it's for the better, but it's not. It's lies like these, on both sides, that lead to a worse world and more killings. It's not too late for you to change.
I don't think it's hard to imagine how tanks, artillery, and apache helicopters would do more damage than rifles and a handful of RPGs.
You just have to look at the incinerated cars and bodies from the festival to see how much damage the helicopters did there.
All that may be true, but when the plan went to shit, they still attacked, killed, and took hostage many civilians.
I recommend watching the video I linked to get a better understanding of what really happened.
The Anc in south Africa was responsible of killing civilians, same with many resistance groups like the mau mau in kanya, the fln in algeria and Nana Sahib soldiers in India. Nate Turner also killed women and children's of slave owners. Commiting some act of terror doesn't strip those groups and people from being freedom fighters. You support a state for Palestinians while opposing the people who are currently fighting the IDF because the West is doing nothing to stop it
And how did that conflict end?
Did the ANC push all the white people into the sea?
It ended with truth and reconciliation. It ended with the ANC committed to peaceful transition.
I see zero indication that Hamas will lead Gaza in that direction. They are the polar opposite, becoming more militant and extreme over time, not less.
Who told you that we want to push Jews into the sea? Actually it's Israel who is trying to expell Palestinians once again from their land.
Hamas said that they would drop their arms once Palestinians get a state. If they are lying trust me Palestinians will go against them. Of course they going to get more extreme everytime Israel keep extending illegal settlement and maintain the blockade