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I 100% support Palestinian statehood but to deny that Hamas are terrorists is absurd. A true "freedom fighter" would attack only government and military targets and would never condone killing 500+ civilians at a music festival. Do you believe that's acceptable?
Then why aren't you calling Israel and the IDF terrorists?
To get out of this whole mess, this is a textbook no true Scotsman argument. The IRA were freedom fighters and also notorious for killing civilians (car bombs anyone?).
Nah, "freedom fighters" do that shit all the time and "no true freedom fighter" is a fallacy. For example, there are huge political rifts between Poland and Ukraine because of "freedom fighters" on both sides committing massacres, assassinations etc. What one side calls heroes, the other calls terrorists. Same thing for freedom fighters in occupied France, Poland.
Edit: also fuck Hamas those terrorist pieces of dung.
Hamas targets were military targets. More than 33% killed were active IDF soldiers.
The music festival next to a military base was not even supposed to be there. And there were many armed IDF soldiers at the festival (human shields anyone?)
If Hamas wanted civilian casualties they would have pushed into Israeli cities instead of raiding the heavily guarded military bases around the Gaza envelope.
For a more detailed explanation, an Israeli person made this great video https://youtu.be/Pt_1k7nSv1M
"Only two-thirds of the people killed were civilians!" is quite the defense. Impressive.
The US had a civilian casualty rate of 12/13 in Iraq.
The IDF with 70% women and children killed would have a higher civilian casualty rate than Hamas even if literally every single man they killed was an active duty Hamas fighter.
OK, and? You're seriously trying to defend 66% civilian casualties because 70%+ is worse?
Now compare that to the IDF...
I am. Killing civilians is bad, and I don't care who does it. Only on Lemmy do we see galaxy-brains decrying Palestinian deaths while brushing off 66% civilian casualties on the Israeli side.
They planned to and did attack plenty of kibbutzes, slaughtering and kidnapping all civilian inhabitants they could
Their plans were clearly to capture and ransom them. Even Israeli witnesses testify to that, as well as to the fact that the IDF did the vast majority of damage.
You can find reports from journalists that saw were shown security and bodycam footage, that describe something very different. Freedom fighters taking lots of joy in killing civilians, young and old
But I know the story on Hexbear that those were all just Mossad plants
edit: here
A few more recent sources, including some Israeli ones:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-07/israel-hannibal-directive-kidnap-hamas-gaza-hostages-idf/104224430
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231021-israel-settler-israel-forces-killed-hostages-not-hamas/
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-06/ty-article/.premium/idf-probing-death-of-12-hostages-in-beeri-house-shelled-on-orders-of-senior-officer/0000018d-7b6c-d008-a9cd-fbfdb0040000
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officer-recounts-ordering-tank-fire-on-beeri-home-during-hostage-standoff-on-oct-7/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rTQcjyhPOIk
https://youtube.com/watch?v=bjGL0HFTgiU
https://youtube.com/watch?v=GjC0_swYbT4
I'm more than aware that a lot of Israeli civilians killed by friendly fire. But your claim that the IDF "did the vast majority of damage" is exactly the hexbear fantasy I'm talking about.
You're lying to yourself, and others. You might think it's for the better, but it's not. It's lies like these, on both sides, that lead to a worse world and more killings. It's not too late for you to change.
I don't think it's hard to imagine how tanks, artillery, and apache helicopters would do more damage than rifles and a handful of RPGs.
You just have to look at the incinerated cars and bodies from the festival to see how much damage the helicopters did there.
All that may be true, but when the plan went to shit, they still attacked, killed, and took hostage many civilians.
I recommend watching the video I linked to get a better understanding of what really happened.
The Anc in south Africa was responsible of killing civilians, same with many resistance groups like the mau mau in kanya, the fln in algeria and Nana Sahib soldiers in India. Nate Turner also killed women and children's of slave owners. Commiting some act of terror doesn't strip those groups and people from being freedom fighters. You support a state for Palestinians while opposing the people who are currently fighting the IDF because the West is doing nothing to stop it
And how did that conflict end?
Did the ANC push all the white people into the sea?
It ended with truth and reconciliation. It ended with the ANC committed to peaceful transition.
I see zero indication that Hamas will lead Gaza in that direction. They are the polar opposite, becoming more militant and extreme over time, not less.
Who told you that we want to push Jews into the sea? Actually it's Israel who is trying to expell Palestinians once again from their land.
Hamas said that they would drop their arms once Palestinians get a state. If they are lying trust me Palestinians will go against them. Of course they going to get more extreme everytime Israel keep extending illegal settlement and maintain the blockade