this post was submitted on 08 Aug 2024
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It's false that your heresy has existed for 2000 years; it's only been the last few hundred. Salvation is through the Church, not through Christ, and outside the church you're damned. Sorry.
Mate, I don't even have a frame of reference to understand where you're coming from. Do you believe the Bible? What are you, Eastern Orthodox or something? Or are you trolling? I don't want to assume ill intent, but I'd like to have something to go off of. The idea that mankind can save each other is preposterous to me. What do you think Jesus died for? And also I'm part of a church and I've seen God work in my life, so you're going to have to be more specific if you're going to say that's not up to standards.
If you'll take a word offered in the spirit of kindness - this, this right here is where you lost this conversation. The goal should not be so much to "win", as to truly win. By your own admission, you cannot save anyone, hence you are not responsible for even trying, only for representing what your faith has done in your own life.
And calling the other person a troll - even (especially) if they are one - cements their attitude against you. Then further calling their understanding as "preposterous"... well, you get the idea.
Do whatever you want, but I thought I'd offer that thought at least.
I wasn't trying to "win" in the way you think I was yet. I was just trying to gather information.
My default assumption when someone claims to be saved is that they are until proven otherwise, but believing that the Church and not Christ is the source of salvation is a convincing proof otherwise from my perspective. But then my mind goes into "rebuke" mode and not "plant some seeds" mode, because people who consider themselves part of the Church should be open to rebuke (though of course I still try to be kind about it, that doesn't come across easily over the net.)
For the sake of the rebuke, I wanted to understand what exactly they believe in so I could address it more directly, but that clearly wasn't going anywhere. By their logic, I didn't even have the right to ask because I'm not already part of whatever "Church" they're a part of. Between their aggression and the fact that I've never heard of a belief system that lines up with what they were saying, I saw trolling as a likely possibility, moreso than I let on at this point. I suppose I could have tried for a little longer before bringing it up, but as you can see, I only asked, and then stated immediately afterwards that I didn't want to assume ill intent.
So it wasn't intended so much an accusation as a test of the waters, but I suppose it didn't come off that way, and a troll wouldn't answer that honestly, so the only purpose it served was to protect my own pride against the vision I had of someone laughing at their screen going "look how long I'm keeping this fool in an argument, and they don't even suspect I'm trolling." I'll try to do better about that in the future.
As for the use of "preposterous," I did add "to me" to soften it a bit, and this is clearly someone who's able to handle that level of bluntness.
Thanks for your thoughts. I guess upon becoming sure that they were a troll, instead of calling them out to end it there, I should have shifted out of rebuking mode (since someone who's pretending to be a Christian for trolling purposes is not going to be open to Christian rebuke,) and considered whether I was in a position to share my faith. In this case, I think I was, but it might be too late now. I'll take another look tomorrow to see.
You do not owe me - an explanation or anything else. You stand before God and yourself, not me.
As for trolling, the best resource I've ever seen by far is The Alt-Right Playbook by Innuendo Studios. He's an avid atheist, which is not relevant in the slightest even for discussing trolling on religious topics. Though I will add that a lot of atheists seem to see more clearly than the vast majority of "christians" I have ever met. As Jesus said: "But you are only warm—not hot, not cold. So I am ready to spit (vomit) you out of my mouth." (Revelation 3:15) And as CS Lewis said, you have to have a certain amount of character - either good or evil - before you can be truly called either of those things. i.e., someone who shows up to services on Sundays ready for a good hour-long nap is not following Christ, though oddly an atheist who opens their eyes to the foundational principles of the world (see e.g. Romans 1:20) is closer to that than such a "christian". The former abuses the word "God" while denying its power - thereby telling lies (that they "love" Him, that they "follow" Him, etc.) - while the other tells the truth as they yet see it in part, that there is no god (that they can see). Anyway don't let that hold you back from learning from him, if he can see more clearly in this arena - I definitely learned a lot from watching that series:-).
Of course you don't have the right frame of reference to understand because your mind is steeped in heresy. You think you can steal the Bible from the religion that it belongs to and just decide what it means for yourself, but it doesn't work that way. God ordained his Church as his representative in the world, and only through that Church can you be saved. The Church is the only one who can interpret the Bible, and outside the Church you stand condemned.
Which church? What is your version of Christianity called?
I don't have a "version" of Christianity; I follow the truth. Why are you so concerned with my identity? Are you unable to engage with true ideas without putting the speaker into a comfortable box?
You are telling me I can't find salvation outside the church. I am already part of a church, but apparently it's not the right church. You won't even tell me what church you want me to join. At this point, I'm convinced you're trolling.
You say you're part of "a church." But there is only one Church, founded by the apostles, and if you were part of the true church, you wouldn't call it "a" church.
I'm not trolling. Matthew 13:13-15.
You said salvation comes through the Church, and not through Christ. That conflicts with the Bible, but when I said so, you said that only the Church has the right to interpret the Bible. You say my version of Christianity only existed in the past few hundred years, which implies that you're decrying Protestantism in favor of Catholicism, but Catholics and Protestants alike have those verses, which have existed for about 2000 years. You say that the Church, founded by the apostles, is the authority, but in another comment, you complained that modern Christianity follows Paul (an apostle) and only keeps Christ for the branding. Either that, or you're saying that's the Church you're a part of, but that would be a strange statement to make.
If you at least tell me what people call your version of Christianity, I can get a frame of reference to discuss this proper. And if you're convinced that I'm just going to use that to google "disproof of " and parrot that^[I wasn't planning on it, for the record. I was probably just going to go to Wikipedia to review the beliefs so that I can see where you're coming from and address that.], then how about instead you describe your theology, including why you think Jesus died on the cross and how you think the Church is responsible for salvation, preferably with Bible verses to back it up, and I can meet you there?
You are resorting to accusations of heresy because I believe in the saving power of the son of God and refuse to concede that your Church, which you won't even identify beyond "it's the same one it's always been," is a higher authority. I believe that my church is part of the Church, being a global body of believers who follow the Bible and find salvation in Christ, which has persisted since the onset of Christianity.
If you are unwilling to engage in proper discourse, then my hands are tied, and my best course of action is to assume that you are a troll who wanted to own me for trying to correct someone else's misunderstanding by being aggressive at me with something ridiculous. Maybe you're hoping to get me to re-evaluate my comment and expose my hypocrisy, but I already gave my comment a second evaluation before I posted (and a third just now to be sure,) and there's no hypocrisy here. I don't have a problem with you coming at me to show where I'm wrong, but you have to actually show where I'm wrong, not just repeat your claim and accuse me of heresy for not believing it. Show me where the Bible supports it, because that's where my beliefs are rooted, or at least demonstrate the fruits of the Spirit. So far, all I've seen is aggression, and that's not a good approach for changing hearts. If you review what I said to Bones, I was firm, but kind.
You're already in error to ask for support for positions based on the Bible, because the Church determines the Bible's meaning, not the other way around. If you're evaluating claims against what you think the Bible means, your religion is based on yourself, not on God's Church, and you are a heretic and stand condemned.
The reasons for Christ's death are deeper matters to discuss with those in the Church. The Church is responsible for salvation because it was ordained by God through Christ to be His physical manifestation in the world; there is no other way to Him.