this post was submitted on 11 May 2024
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"b-but bears are actually dangerous!" Shut the hell up.

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[–] [email protected] 111 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (5 children)

The thing is, I've seen statements like this before. Except when I heard it, it was being used to justify ignoring women's experiences and feelings in regard to things like sexual harassment and feeling unsafe, since that's "just a feeling" as well. It wasn't okay then, and it's not okay the other way around. The truth is that feelings do matter, on both sides. Everyone should feel safe and welcome in their surroundings. And how much so that is, is reflected in how those people feel.

The outcome of men feeling being respected and women feeling safe are not mutually exclusive. The sad part is that someone who is reading this here is far more likely to be an ally than a foe, yet the people who need to hear the intended message the most will most likely never hear it nor be bothered by it. There's a stick being wedged here that is only meant to divide, and oh my god is it working.

The original post about bears has completely lost all meaning and any semblance of discussion is lost because the metaphor is inflammatory by design - sometimes that's a good thing, to highlight through absurdity. But metaphors are fragile - if it's very likely to be misunderstood or offensive, the message is lost in emotion. Personally I think this metaphor is just highly ineffective at getting the message across, as it has driven people who would stand by the original message to the other side due to the many uncharitable interpretations it presents. And among the crowd of reasonable people are those who confirm those interpretations and muddy the water to make women seem like misandrists, and men like sexual assault deniers. This meme is simply terrible and perhaps we can move on to a better version of it that actually gets the message across well, instead of getting people at each other's throat.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago

Best take in this thread by a long shot. I'd like to add that there's nothing wrong with a little thought experiment to illicit a point. But the internet has become such an inhospitable place to any kind of discussion requiring nuance and patience.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 7 months ago (2 children)

You're right, feelings do matter, and this post did not dispute that. It's just that safety matters more.

It saddens me that the default interpretation of this is accusatory and requiring of defense. Not to personally blame you, this is very common and clearly a systemic reaction, but I don't know enough psychology/politics/sociology to understand why, just enough to know it's bad.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 7 months ago (2 children)

It saddens me that the default interpretation of this is accusatory

It’s saying men are inherently unsafe to be around. How is that not accusatory?

This isn’t about women’s safety versus men’s feelings, it’s about women’s feelings (of safety) versus men’s feelings (of respect).

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago

But it doesn't say that

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

But it doesn't say you personally are unsafe, it says that the odds that a man chosen at random is unsafe is high enough that women - understandably - fear being left alone with a random stranger to a level at least comparable with being left alone with a bear.

An enormous number of men fail to understand just how common and how terrifying it is for women to be harassed, assaulted and raped by men. And that is exactly what the bear/man hyperbole is pointing out.

And the reason people with takes like yours get chewed out for it is because you could do some reflection and consider

what is this systemic issue, what behaviours might make women around me scared, what can we as a society do to change this, and what can I do to avoid women around me fearing I may be unsafe?

But instead, they take it as a personal attack, and so respond

why am I being attacked for someone else's behaviour?

Edit: here's another example in a similar format to demonstrate how the meme is being misinterpreted, note how your first response wouldn't be "why are you accusing all priests?!"

"Who would you rather babysit your child, a bear or a Catholic priest?"

[–] [email protected] -1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

It’s what it says to me and many of us. Perhaps it’s the messaging.

What do you mean what behaviors? I don’t harass women. I barely talk to people I don’t know. But yet people are still scared of me.

And I would 100% pick a catholic priest. What a dumb choice. And, yeah, you are accusing everyone.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I clearly said: it's not targeted at you specifically, but at that fact that women are disproportionately more likely to be harassed or assaulted, and when that happens, the aggressor is almost exclusively men.

They're not scared of you because you're personally scary, they're scared of you because there's an ingrained culture of sexual harassment of women by men. So when you say "that's a nice dress" to a woman you don't know, she's not thinking "aww cute", she's thinking "is this guy being nice, or will they threaten me if I turn them down?"

Seriously, ask literally any woman you know if they've ever been sexually harassed, and the answer is almost guaranteed to be yes.

I would 100% pick a Catholic priest

Yes, I know that, that's how hyperbole works. My point is that such a statement shouldn't be interpreted as "every priest is a child molester" but as "there's a concerningly high rate of them, and they're probably not a good option for childcare."

You are accusing everyone

When did I say "all men are <whatever you're saying I'm accusing all men of>?" Stop making this about you, and actually try to understand why interactions with men can be terrifying for women.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 7 months ago

If you are not targeting all men, stop talking about men as one generalized body.

Sorry, when you say “I’d rather encounter a bear than a man” it sure as hell sound like you are saying all men are dangerous. If that isn’t what you are saying, you are saying it poorly.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 7 months ago

Honestly I am so goddamn tired of this shit, everytime something like the bear question comes up it blatantly tilted in one side or the others favor and dissent is crushed in both sets of spaces and no one learns anything.