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Zelenskyy thanks US for opportunity to kill some tens/hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians more, as well as pocket a few billion dollars for himself and his friends.
Yeah, let Russia walz right through Ukraine and then Moldova - what could possibly go wrong! Apart from that, Russia is the one loosing hundreds of thousands soldiers. The difference in the way Ukraine mourns their lost ones is such, that calling Russia "Civilized" in any way is just a blatant lie. Russia is utterly disgusting.
You know that Zelensky is the one that is not willing to negotiate and just wants to murder as many people as he can?
For a war to end there needs to be a negotiation (with some quite rare exceptions of totally conquering another country or stalemates like in Koreas), and Russia is constantly saying (even when it's winning) that it is willing to negotiate and end the war, in contrast to Zelensky.
How hypocritical do you have to be, to be on the side of those who are not willing to negotiate and continuing the war despite everything, and yet accuse the other side of wanting to conquer the world?
Why would you even try to negotiate with a terrorist (and whatever else attributes Putin has attributed to him)? For a war to end, there needs to be a winner and a looser - Russia HAS to loose this, because they have been disregarding rules set by most international communities for over 100 Years.
Apart from that, Putin is not willing to negotiate - they are willing to dictated terms. That may just a be a tiny difference to your pea brain, but it's a pretty huge one in reality. How cynical and fucked up does one have to be, to be willing to negotiate with terrorists? Not only that, how utterly depraved of any civility, intelligence and decency has anyone be, to accuse Ukraine of being "the bad guy" here?
Everybody is breaking them whenever it is convenient.
Well but how do you know that if you don't negotiate? Your media told you so? Oh then it must be the truth, because it's the other's side media that spreads propaganda, the one that you listen to speaks the truth, am I right?
Why is almost every negotiation with the "clearly intelligently superior westerner leftists" boils down to Ad Hominem? Why do you never have a convincing argument and have to resort to personal attacks of people you disagree with?
Are you seriously talking about civility and decency while supporting a regime that hunts and kidnaps people on the streets sending them into the meat grinder? If this is what you call civility and decency, then I am indeed depraved of it.
Putin's Evil Empire isn't "everybody".
Yes why do you support these guys? And why do you hate the Free World?
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/24/world/CN-24ukraine-briefing-Russianprotestssub-copy/24ukraine-briefing-Russianprotestssub-videoSixteenByNine3000.jpg
I support neither Russia nor Ukraine.
Because the Free World is currently conducting a genocide on Ukrainians
You cannot tell the difference between Russia and the Free World? What is wrong with you man?
Is it Russia that kidnaps Ukrainians on the streets and sends them to die? The last time I checked it was Zelensky's regime.
Nope. It is Russia that has kidnapped almost 20,000 Ukrainian children. That is the side you are on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abductions_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War
Ah, so justification is - they do something bad, so we will do something bad as well (not towards them tho).
Got it
The only ones conducting a genocide on Ukrainians are the Russians.
They could pull back any time they wanted and end the war this instant. But they choose to keep killing.
Nope, it's Zelensky thanks to the support from the west. The only ones that can be considered killed by Russians are killed civilians and volunteers (those two groups together are barely a meaningful number). People who are kidnapped on the streets and sent to army are dead thanks to Zelensky and your (rather your government) support of him. If it were not for that, they would be alive (or at least they would have a much higher chance to be alive). If you are going to deny that, please take an effort to argument your position, as it is quite tiring to speak to a wall :/
That's what Russians are telling themself to cope with the reality, that they don't want to see. The reality is: Nobody is breaking them like Russia. Even China doesn't do it like Russia does. For the most part, there is accountability in the rest of the world, corruption isn't as rampant as it is in Russia.
No, you couldn't be more wrong. "The Media" told me nothing, they just translate what Russia, Putin and his cronies are talking about and there are enough people speaking Russian to raise flags if they translate something wrong. Another thing Russian propaganda is trying to do, but failing for the most part. Sure, interviews can be taken out of context, but actions also speak louder than any words anyone can utter and what russia is doing is terrorizing innocent people, displace innocent children and rip families apart.
Because "we" are fucking tired of all these stupid antics that can't even withstand a long hard view at the facts. All that shit about shifting the blame and goalposts, disregarding everything that was "before" is just exhausting and it doesn't work/help anything, because every argument is met with more lies, propaganda, egoism and whataboutism.
See? That's what is so utterly infuriating about you - there is not a single shred of evidence supporting this. No Report from anyone has ever talked about this, no interview with the people, no interview with soldiers - nothing. While the evidence Russia is doing exactly that is utterly crushing - there is absolutely zero doubt, because numerous people, outlets, pictures, satellite surveillance and various money laundering schemes reported independently the same thing over and over again.
And for what it's worth: I'm not sure if i'm talking to ChatGPT or a proper human being, but if i'm talking to a real human being, nothing i will write here will get you off your high horse anyway, so this is more to all those people reading this in the future (if any), but let it be known that enough is enough and "the silent majority" is done being quiet.
https://uadraftmuseum.ch/
You're terrible at lying, not convinced at all. 2/10.
So what is it I lie about?
What is this leftist fetish of accusing people of lying, and not point out what they consider a lie (and I'm not even talking about proving the opponents wrong by providing some arguments, this clearly requires too much intelligence, right?)?..
Because it's just easier to down vote and move along. We're not being paid like you are. Plus, fascism is incredibly hard to stomach for normal people. You wouldn't understand.
Sure, everybody who disagrees with your opinion is getting paid
You're right, you could actually be a fascist and do it for free. Shrug Or you actually believe their propaganda, I guess... But if I were you I think I'd rather people believe I was being paid.
What a wonderful time we live in, expressing an opinion that murdering people is not OK is now considered fascist :)
Again, you did not even specify what propaganda do I believe? Seriously, why is everybody here so incapable of having a discussion?
Ok I'll bite and play a guessing game with you.
Do you consider that "Zelenskyy is the one not negotiating while Russia has repeatedly said it is willing to negotiate" a propaganda?
If so, just let me know and I will give you sources for that, I just though that it is widely known?
The point is that it's a shit argument because you don't negociate with terrorists. If I come into your house and claim the kitchen as my own because it used to be mine 50 years ago, will you say "ok, fine, keep it, but promise me you won't take the bathroom or the living room later"?
Do you really not see the irony? Not even the smallest bit? Holy shit...
You can't claim my kitchen because it was your 50 years ago, but Ukraine can claim Crimea because it used to be theirs 10 years ago?
So the period where you can claim something as your because it belonged to you some time ago is greater than 10 years but smaller than 50 years, is that right?
Okay I actually know the answer to that question - it's "whatever USA says it is" (rephrased to something like international agreements or UN stuff), sure.
Anyway, this is offtopic. Calling each other terrorists (yeah Russia does that as well) is as counter-productive as it gets, but let's discuss it anyway.
Definition (from wikipedia, not mine!):
Regime of zelensky uses violence (in the form of kidnapping people on the streets and sending them to the meat grinder) and fear (people fear to go outside because they can be kidnapped at any time, fear for themselves and for their family) to achieve political aims of conquering territories (you can read it as "reclaiming", does not matter).
So isn't it the west that shouldn't be negotiating with zelensky and instead sending military aid to Russia to deal with terrorists as soon as possible?
See? This is why nobody talks to you. Because you think Russia "owns" Crimea because they took it 10 years ago. Because you think Russia owns abkazia and south Ossetia because they took it in 2008. Chechnya in 2000 and Transnistria in 92.
You don't wanna admit it, because as I've said, you're either getting paid or you're too dumb to see it, but the common denominator is Russia here. They're the aggressors.
And let's not pretend that all the Russians that have suddenly showed up in western countries aren't running away from getting drafted. All the poor ones that couldn't are doing what? Living happily in Russia or are sent to the front? Ofc you'll say they're all happily serving. Except for all the ones that have surrendered and claimed they weren't even told they were going to war. But that's all Ukrainian propaganda, right?
Everything Russia does is fine and normal and everything Ukraine does is kidnap, kill, corruption, etc. Right? Makes perfect sense... When you're being paid by one side... Shrug I'm done... Hope you get whatever it is you deserve :) bb!
Thank you for proving my point! Yes, you are right, they are running away from getting draft.
Because they can! They have a choice! Ukrainians don't. Ukrainians are trapped in Ukraine and slowly getting butchered thanks to the support from your government.
Ahahahha.. running away from draft = they had a choice. No, if they had been given a choice they would've stayed home. Unlike all the Ukrainians that were forced to flee from the invaders. Because there's plenty of those as well. But I'm sure you'll have something to say about that as well.. russians in Europe= they have a choice. Ukrainians in Europe = what? Please tell me, I'm sure it's not "because they can! They have a choice!" Is it?
Also nice dodging of everything else I've said. It's great to see your conversation skills. You're almost as good as a 3 year old..." Noooo, why won't you people have a discussion?! Why?! Is it because I'm a vatnik?! What?! Noooo, I'm not, I'm trying to have a discussion but I only bring up lies and twisted bullshit that I've been paid to say and ignore everything else, noooo... "
Anyway, let's keep going, let's get you some more rubles. Or is it monero for you? xD Tell me more.
They have SOME choice. Ukrainians have none.
They CANNOT (at least legally) flee from the invaders. They are locked in a west-sponsored prison called "Ukraine".
Russians in Europe = they bought a ticket, boarded a plane and landed in Europe. As simple as that.
Ukrainians in Europe = they either
So - yes exactly, just like I said, people on the territories controlled by Russia have a choice, on territories controlled by Ukraine - they are imprisoned.
That is quite funny, because I'm constantly being accused of that, yet nobody even pointed out what exactly I lie about let alone disproving those lies.. Weird, don't you think?..
What exactly would you like me to respond to? It's mostly Ad Hominem about me being stupid, or the usual western "you have different opinion than me so you must be a Russian bot / paid by Russia", I don't think it makes sense to respond to that.
I've never said that, if that's what you want me to respond to.
Let me bring it up again then, because if you didn't ignore it before then you must've simply not noticed it. Russia took Crimea and that was fine because it was theirs to begin with or whatever right? Georgia Ossetia and Abkhazia ? Chechnya? Transnistria? All of these democratically elected to be "independent" or to be russian right? Definitely nothing going on there.
And well, I personally know plenty of Ukrainians that aren't hiding and they haven't been drafted yet. So I don't see why they'd need to resort to kidnappings to get people on the frontlines.Go on twitch and other streaming services and you can talk to them yourself. And not talking about the popular ones, there's people with 0-3 viewers, so you can't claim they're public figures and they're exceptions or whatever .
I am not saying either of those things are okay or not okay (as well as other countries annexing other countries' territories btw), because it depends on whether the people there wanted to part of Russia or not (and we cannot know this for sure, as different sides will claim differently).
As for the Crimea in particular though, I was there a few times while it still belonged to Ukraine, and the people I've met there were mostly extremely pro-Russian and some were openly saying they would like to be a part of Russia. But of course this is a hearsay, and you may have heard different things (which wouldn't mean that either one of us is wrong!), but as I said before I do not assert that this is okay or not okay, I am only saying that I find it quite possible that in case of Crimea it was indeed will of the people (which would make it okay).
The same applies to Donbas - while I have never been there, I've met people from there and some of them were pro-Ukrainian some of them were pro-Russian, I met more pro-Russian ones (but again, I agree that this is a hearsay).
As for the other annexed Ukrainian territories and the countries/regions you've mentioned - I have never spoken with people from those territories, so again I do not assert it was fine or not fine, as it depends on what people of those territories think - and I do now know that.
Everybody I know who hasn't managed to escape and is of the draft age and isn't a college student is trying to hide.
And yet they do.
https://uadraftmuseum.ch
Because Zelensky's propaganda repeated by western media is saying that everybody wants to fight Russia and everybody volunteers, while the reality is completely different, and who could have thought - people want to live instead of dying for their politicians (which is what Zelensky with support from the west is doing). And speaking out this fact, that people want to live, and that it is not okay to kill them, makes people call me fascist here. To clarify - I am not saying there are no volunteers, I even have some distant relatives who have volunteered, but they are a minority, the regime needs to kidnap people from the streets in order to survive.
I have no need for that, it's only logical that not everybody has been kidnapped yet, they do it when they need more people for the meat grinder.
And as I said - for now not everybody needs to fear being kidnapped at any time, as they are not touching some groups of people currently. But they already lowered the age of acceptable kidnapping from 27 to 25, and some even say that kidnapping 18 year olds is only a matter of time (I've read stories about how they have already kidnapped a few kids, and even girls, it's just that for now they let them go when they discover their age/gender, but for how long? let me know if you want me to try to find those stories :) ). Some say that women should get the same treatment.
Yeah, but see... All the people in russian occupied territories weren't given a choice. russia occupied and that's that. Regardless of people's wills. And they're doing the same in Ukraine. Except Ukraine is fighting back. If they were to negotiate peace it would simply mean giving up on the people there, because russia would never give them back, getting more territory was the whole point of the attack. So if the people are pro russia sure, those people won't mind. But if they're pro Ukraine? What happens to those people? And what happens in a few years when russian forces will have regrouped and they'll have enough ammo and weapons to attack again? Because history shows they'll attack again...every few years they take more land. Should everyone from Ukraine just move somewhere else and leave the land for russia to avoid bloodshed? Then maybe Poland and Moldova should do the same, because russia will want that land too. Maybe we should all just become the russian federation. That way for sure no more blood will be spilled. And of course all of this is on Zelensky because he's the one that attacked. It's all because of him. If he were a good puppet like lukashenko none of this would've happened. That fucking Zelensky... Fuck him for standing up to russia and trying to steer the country towards the EU and NATO, right? It's all his fault. Before him everyone was pro russia. He could stop putin if only he'd give him what he wants. It's that simple. Right?
That's a fair argument.
But comparing that (simply living under a different government, which is actually extremely similar to the old one) with killing people is not fair.
I don't know, what happens?
They have a choice to do as they please - they can sell their real estate (if they have any, if they don't then it is even less of a problem) and move to unoccupied Ukraine territories (although it would be a very weird choice, because there they would be trapped, and wouldn't be able to go back, so this is a one way trip...), or they can continue living on the occupied territories like many have done.
This is a speculation of what will happen, and unfortunately I've lost my crystal ball so it's not possible for me to confirm whether you are right or wrong.
As for regrouping of the forces... I believe that neither of us is a military expert (let me know if I am wrong), so in my opinion it is Ukraine that needs regrouping (even the western media seems to be predicting their fall now, but of course I can be wrong there), in your opinion it might be the other way around, it's hard to debate on that.
Please point me to the message where I said that?
The causes for the war is a whole another dimension to discuss, that would include a "war" against Russian language in Ukraine (when it is the language spoken by half of the population, give or take, and that was considered being set as second official language), the glorification of Bandera (you can look up his deeds during WW2, Poles love that guy), and lots of other stuff, but as I said it's a different topic to discuss.
Russia indeed is the one that attacked Ukraine and I've never said otherwise.
Indeed fucking Zelensky. Not for standing up to Russia though, but for murdering other people to achieve his political / ideological goals. If he wouldn't kidnap people and treat them worse then dogs, I would support him (at least to some extent - as I said previously I believe that in case of Crimea and Donbas it was the will of the people to join Russia, but I don't think it was the case with the other annexed territories), and possibly even donate. But in the current situation - supporting him is equivalent to supporting killing of my friends, family and every other Ukrainian still trapped there. How can I do that? Other people would support him as well. But for now, don't you think that it is absolutely logical for Ukrainians who dare to want to live - to actually support Russia? It is in our interest for Russia to win, because this is the scenario where we get to live, and in the other scenario we die. This is why I (and many other people, it's just that you won't hear that in western media, because that is not the current narration. Surprisingly, you might actually start hearing more about that, because now even some of my very pro-Zelensky friends started to wake up as well. Unsurprisingly this happened because now it started to affect them as well, it was okay for them when it was other people's problem) hate Zelensky - he makes it impossible for us to support our own fucking country, supporting the invader is the only logical choice if you throw emotions out of it.
In the last negotiations before Zelensky had forbidden negotiations with Russia, it was agreed that Russia doesn't mind Ukraine joining EU.
Doesn't mind joining EU? Oh, because I assume 2014 was a coup and not people being mad at the president refusing to sign a trade agreement with the EU and choosing closer ties to russia despite promises right?
Like those negotiations where russia promised not to attack Ukraine if they gave up their nukes, yeah.
Also, you need a crystal ball to see whether russia will keep doing what they're been doing for the past 30 years? You're so cute.
And I find it hilarious that you're rooting for the perpetrators of the Bucha massacre. I guess none of your friends were there so that was fine. Well, if that's what your logic dictates, very well. Good luck with that.
But yeah, either you're a very naïve ukranian or more likely what I've been saying from the start. Guess it doesn't really matter.
Why are you asking me? It's a publicly available info, not my opinion.
From wikipedia:
A sudden appropriation of leadership or power; a takeover.Seems to suit that definition.
Yeah, they did that. Now, would you please be so kind to tell me about a country that never broke any internation laws, agreements, etc.? Pro tip: you can't.
Does it mean that nobody should negotiate with each anymore because we all did bad things in the past, and we should instead just kill each other?
Yes, thankfully none of my friends were there.
But this is again an unfair comparison!
According to the wikipedia - a few hundred people were murdered there. Let's add to that a few thousand more civilians that were killed by Russian forces. Let's say it is a ten thousand, give or take. This is a horrible number. Yet the number of people killed/wounded by Zelensky's regime is an order of fucking magnitude greater than that! Estimated to be in hundreds of thousands!
If you were given an option where you could die with 1% chance or with 10% chance, which option would you choose? I think for most people the answer is clearly the former. My logic indeed dictates that, and I would choose it every time. Does your logic say otherwise?
So you're damn right I'm rooting for the "perpetrators of the Bucha massacre" instead of "perpetrators of mass genocide of Ukrainians". If there was a good side to root for, I would. But there isn't. So I support the side that I consider the lesser evil, the side which gives Ukrainians a hope of survival.
Could you please explain to me, how does "rooting for" the side that increases the chance of survival for my family and all the other Ukrainians mean that I am naïve?
Or if you think what you've "been saying from the start" (basically that Mr. Putin pays me to write comments on lemmy), why do you think so? Why isn't it logical for a Ukrainian to hope that Russia will win? I argumented my position, that it's as simple as increasing the chance of survival for oneself and their family. Isn't that the most precious thing one has?
First of all, what putin says and what putin does are 2 different things, that's the whole point. Actions speak louder than words and his actions have been that of a fascist dictator. I don't give a fuck what he claims he's open to before submitting a peace proposal that he knows nobody will accept.
Secondly, I was referring to the russian propaganda that claims it was an American coup as opposed to a people's revolution. Both are technically coups, but usually coup is used when a military or o elite group takes power, as opposed to the people getting fed up with a corrupt government. "a coup, is typically an illegal and overt attempt by a military organization or other government elites to unseat an incumbent leadership"
Third. Please spare me... You're literally saying 100 people getting raped and murdered by an attacker is better than 1000 people dying for the freedom an entire country. Also, "31,000 killed, 7,000–8,000 missing", definitely not an order of magnitude greater. And again, you're attributing the blame on Zelensky and not on putin who attacked or the russians that killed them. That's fucked up. Imagine if the US had stayed home instead of helping Europe during WW2. That would've meant a lot fewer people killed too, btw. You're literally rooting for a miniHitler. Only difference is that now Hitler has nukes and NATO are afraid of those. Anyway, I'm really done now. Can't really talk to someone that admits the Bucha massacre was a thing and argues that those people should win the war. There's literally nothing I could say to that. If you don't think that's wrong, then I don't know what to say to that. I'm out, bye.
There's nothing I can say to arguing that "killing Ukrainians is okay because they are killed 'for the greater good of stopping a miniHitler'" as well. I don't find it morally correct to kill people that done nothing wrong.
And also,
Is lower than even Ukrainian propaganda is saying, it's twice that number for the first year of war (US estimate), so about 4 times that number as of now, by US estimate.
Putin has started the war and can end it at any time he pleases by removing his forces from the occupied regions of Ukraine.
The hypocrisy here just reached a new height.
The comment by another guy here says
And you say
Which is exactly dictating terms instead of negotiating, and exactly what I am talking about when I say that you are on the side of those who are not willing to negotiate.
You're pulling an argument of another person into my argument and accuse me of hypocrisy based on that.
You are arguing in bad faith, have a nice day.
Ok sorry, both comments were heavily upvoted so I assumed this is the collective position, my bad.