sudneo

Right, violence works usually works to eradicate ideas and standardize morality!

This is not even a slope, it is the application of the same principle applied by people who have different views and morality.

Edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative

Just a thought: what happens when that "we" is people who - say - think the courts and the police are not doing their job in sending home all "these illegal immigrants" or something like that?

And Musk, and the Hungarian boxer, and many more around the World. This has been a worldwide case, not just a private US shitshow.

I had to search, and I did find a few articles talking about a rumor.

I don't think the two events are of same scope and magnitude. The Khelif's case has been a worldwide media case, what I found for was very US-specific and limited to some niche deranged corner of the internet (https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/07/27/katie-ledecky-trans-rumors/ listed Facebook and Twitter posts from individuals and 2 articles).

Possibly I shouldn't have used US athletes as example. Given how the topic is so controversial there, I am quite sure you can find a few idiots who would make this claim about any athlete.

Sure! FYI, simplelogin can create aliases with prefix! I usually get service-{random 5 chars}@simplelogin.com, so you can still sort by folder using prefixes.

That seems both unlikely and - to be honest - completely exaggerated and useless.

None of those, really. Just that downplaying successful women doesn't happen as much in sport, and when it does it's not by stating they are men.

If %10 of successful women have ever been downplayed because of their gender (due to unconscious biases for example) vs %1 of successful men, then this is still a handful of examples which nevertheless points to a significant bias.

1. Ok, but where is the data?
2. Sure, it point to the fact that women's success are downplayed. Not that when women are successful they are called men.

when a man breaks a record he is a super human, when a woman breaks a record she is a man.

How did I miss the point? To me it seems clear that what you were saying that women can't be successful, if they are, they are considered men (because men have success).

I am not fixating on the example, sorry, it's the whole thesis you condensed into this sentence that I am fixated on. Women's success can be downplayed in many ways. Either way, in sports in 2024 I don't think this is as much of a problem as it is - say - in business. Most importantly, I think this case had not much to do with downplaying Imane's success (the whole case started waaaay earlier she won the medal), but simply with other factors.

You can take any other boxer, I specifically chose black and "masculine" athletes as examples to show that even race/body type alone was not the determining factor. In these Olympic games you have just Imane's example: how can you call this a trend or make general statements with one case (not even the Taiwanese boxer got attention)?

What do you mean? Comparing the rate at which women are subject to such effects vs men is a worse statistic than saying “but many successful women are not subject to such effects”? If there is a systematic bias towards women’s success being downplayed, you cannot call this an isolated incident of stereotypical bias.

Men don't have a category to which they are wrongfully assigned when they win sports. This is also because men are the higher category in most sports (i.e., higher performers), so it is a parallel that simply doesn't make sense. So yes. It is a worse statistics because men who are victim of gender stereotypes are generally not the ones who excel at sports (men who are called women in general break the masculine stereotype of the muscular and competitive guy - and these unsurprisingly are not characteristics common in elite athletes).

If there is a systematic bias towards women’s success being downplayed

But this was not your claim either. Your claim is that downplaying is done by specifically saying those women are men. The whole point here is on the cause, not the existence of the phenomenon in general.

To be honest I don't consider something being Russian as automatically 100% false. This case from the IBA seems likely made up, or at least it is until they provide further proof, which they didn't so far.

That said, this is irrelevant in this particular conversation. Real or not, that precedent is in my opinion partly responsible for why people decided to attack this particular athletes. I agree with you on the next country also playing a role.

Basically my whole argument is that there are multiple factors that made this a case. The fact that she "broke records" or "had success" is generally very low in the list, imho.

but there are other very successful women who have not been treated that way

What I am actually saying is that the vast majority of successful women athletes didn't suffer from this at this time at all. If this argument works only for Imane Khelif (not even the Taiwanese boxer, who has been mostly ignored), out of the hundreds of women who just won medals, maybe it is not an argument that can be generalized to "women of success", and other causes have to be searched.

This to me is basic common sense: if a thesis works only on a handful of examples and there are hundreds of counter examples, maybe the thesis is wrong. A tendency would require also more examples.