positive_intentions

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Roast the security of my app in c/[email protected]
[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Thanks. I've com across it before. You can find the corresponding security audit online.

Ive tried to address those concerns and I try to give details about it here: https://lemmy.ml/post/18497337

6
Roast the security of my app (lemmy.ml)
 

im aiming to make a chat app secure as theorhetically possible as a webapp. for transparency its open source. id like the user experience to be as close to possible to a regular chat app. its important to note; there are limitation with p2p and webapps such that messages cant be sent if the peer isnt connected.

to keep this post brief, please take a look at the readme. it has all the information and links.

i dont think its ready to replace any app or service, but id love to get feedback on what you think would make it so you would use it more than once.

26
Demo: Virtual Reality over WebRTC (lemmy.ml)
submitted 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
1 comments fedilink
 

https://youtu.be/2gTTu4OqoiM

https://github.com/positive-intentions/chat

the code related to the video is a faily basic implementation using BabylonJS. it can be found here.

id like to see if i can get handpose-estimation to work well enough to be able to add to the BabylonJS render engine.

im working on something i hope will work like the 8thwall demo here. i couldnt find an open-source alternative to this. my progress so far is as described here. i dont have much experience in creating games or graphics, so any guidance/help/advice is appriciated.

disclaimer: its a proof-of-concept app. for testing and demo purposes only. maybe this article helps clarify some details.

Is this a secure messaging app? in c/[email protected]
[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

thanks! i'll make a note of that to add. it looks reletively simple to implement in JS, i'll need to check more about browser compatability. tls 1.3 is already in use. i otherwise have wording throughout that users must trust who they connect to.

as for browser extensions, there are CSP headers set to prevent them from accessing personal details.

impossible to update the software

considering the app amounts to a bunch of statics. they wint update themselves if you dont want it to. the app works in many different forms because all form factors can have nuanced security details. its better for security that if people have the ability to selfhost, then they also have the option to choose the form-factor they use based on their preferences.

Is this a secure messaging app? in c/[email protected]
[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

All nice ideas! I'll take a note. I'd like to make time to make it so on each initial connection it generates new keys too. This should be what I think is forward-secrecy. (Let me know if I'm wrong.)

I don't know the specifics of VPN and it's implication with webrtc, I tried testing and sharing my observations here. I'm open to advice here.

You asked about native builds... Tbh I don't know much about it. I did a short search-engine search and these seem to be well regarded. (Currently?) As a pwa I have a lot of flexibility in the apps form-factor. I was thinking about how easy it would be to make it into a browser extension. (It's not about it being useful, but just providing that extra option.)

Is this a secure messaging app? in c/[email protected]
[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I think for my app to be regarded well in security I think it's important for people to use their own instances. The "live app" as I call it is an experimental proof of concept. I wondering about the idea that the app is run on your own forks, but occasionally sync from upstream. As it stands my app is too garbage for anyone to want a copy, but that should eliminate those concerns.

It's also an offline first pwa. Right now it fetches the latest version, but I don't see why I can't create a toggle on the UI to not fetch if there is cache... Again the app is unstable and experimental. I'm working on fixes and improvements as I see it to make a better app. It's a while away from being able to advocate selfhosting to users. But in theory it could address your concerns?

Many attack vectors still indeed exist. With P2P web tech it seems that this allows for an interesting approach and could help reduce the attack-surface. The app is available for iOS, android and desktop. Let me know if you have more concerns.

Is this a secure messaging app? in c/[email protected]
[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago (5 children)

My bad. I noticed the ego sometimes inflates which seems to stem for naive confidence.

I have observed pitfalls of other apps like mine. In particular one called crypto cat. I'm sure I can't ever be exhaustive enough in learning from other examples.

Reducing metadata is indeed the goal of security and I think I have it reduced to a level where I can exchange webrtc connection data over QR codes or plain text. The IP is exposed at this point but I think this can be further scrubbed with a VPN. Perhaps this is interesting for you. It the minimum example of establishing a webrtc connection with plain text. Not user friendly, but it work without a peer-broker service. In the app I'd like to frame this around exchanging data over QR code.

As for the bitcoin wallet thing, I would think so if it's well tested and ironed out well. As long as I can facilitate the downloading of the data (for backup) and the data syncing between devices then it would be doing that without registering to any backend. There are countless examples of bitcoin exchanges collapsing and taking people's assets. The same could be said with the quality of security provided by chat app providers.

Is this a secure messaging app? in c/[email protected]
[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago (7 children)

alas, we circle back around to "javascript is inherently insecure".

especially the ones that run inside web browsers like this one does

i dont think this is a valid assersion. it seems wrapped in vagueness about the attack vector. as a webapp it has to be sandboxed in a browser. any vulnerabilities will be related to that. i often hear about browsers having backdoors (which is possible), but theyd be saying that in a world where their operating system is more likely the attack surface. id like to discuss that as a webapp, (and a suitable security stack), this app is secure. take for example any existing secure app (signal/simplex/whatsapp?). they can have all the required bells and whistles for secure/private functionality. but all that encryption can be undermined if a typical low-end phone+os is more than capable of snooping your screen. the same as would apply for my app running in a browser. my arguament is if you dont trust google, you shouldnt use chrome. with a lot of those native offering, your choice is limited to something like apple or android.

this app is also contains builds for iOS, Android and desktop. i dont promote them because im simply not convinced that these native builds are better than what web-technology can provide. a recurring concern is the reliablity of the statics served... it seems thats easy to eliminate if i make it open source and selfhostable. it puts me at a competative disadvantage, but consequently it is unparalelled in the devices it can run on.

APT are a valid concern as any. if this is something youre worried about, i think using this app with a trusted VPN in combination to using disposable profiles, it should be easy to achieve. the mitigation for APT seems simple if that is a concern, but let me know if im overlooking something. webrtc can leak ip addresses and after investigating this, i think you can achieve a reasonable degree of "hiding your personal IP address" based on the information here.

compared with dedicated solutions

the purpose of this project is to create a secure chat app. i want this app to be one of those 'dedicated solutions'. as it stands, its created by a baboon sat in front of chatgpt. but the goal is indeed to create something with unparalelled security. people always seems to avert the idea of this app being secure on the grounds that its JS, but i havent come across any credible way to undermine its security without having compromised the stack above the app (browser/os/peer/network) if any of those are a concern, the app is presented in various distributions from website to native builds.

i hope im not coming across as stubborn here. i really think this app represents a different paradigm in security that nobody is exploring. i dont think ive noticed any lack of interest in decentralized or p2p technology, but nobody seems to be working on this kind of app as a webapp. i find that its not only possible, but i think its relatively trivial to get basic functionality together. i understand that the user-experience isnt great at the moment and will limit the people who want to use it, but on the security grounds alone, i think i could be a real-contender for secure chat.

Is this a secure messaging app? in c/[email protected]
[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago (9 children)

You conern is well placed. This is why the project has to be open source and I encourage selfhosters.

If this is your concern, I think the offering from other apps is much more shady. While many projects are open source, when provided from an app store you have much less ability to verify the binaries involved match the available source code. It's at this point backdoors can be introduced. (It may be noteworthy that my app serves code unminified for transparency)

As it stands for me app. It's unstable and so I suggest always using the latest version because I will be adding fixes. It is an offline-first pwa. It's possible to make it so it doesn't fetch statics if it already has a cached vopy. At this early stage it doesn't make sense to use this feature because the project is unstable and recieving various fixes and improvements throughout. (There is no audited version of the app.)

Is this a secure messaging app? in c/[email protected]
[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago

As organizations become bigger, I think they can get a better marketing team. The main heavyweight in chat-apps is whatsapp. I think we can agree that it isn't transparent.

Is this a secure messaging app? in c/[email protected]
[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

Thanks for the advice. I'll try set aside some time for this.

Is this a secure messaging app? in c/[email protected]
[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago

Simplex is good. Mine isn't ready to replace any app or service.

Is this a secure messaging app? in c/[email protected]
[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I think my writing is radically improved and maybe even more clear when I use an LLM. In my experience, when I do this, it seems people are more reluctant to reply to a wall of LLM text as it's seen as low-effort.

I think my app has some strange concepts which are hard enough to explain in my own words. Im sure it must look like bs when it's clearly LLM output.

I think just learning to write better can be achieved with more thought and care, but for me it can become a bit obsessive over the use of words and how they might be interpreted. So I usually just go off the cuff.

Is this a secure messaging app? in c/[email protected]
[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago (11 children)

thanks for your thoughts. im sure others would have similar concerns.

The attacker takes over the server and replaces the JS with a backdoored version

this is a core concern why the app is open source and selfhostable. details are provided in the readme to create a selfhosted fork that runs on github pages. there are several ways around this concern described here.

You are going in the wrong direction

thats unfortunate if you still think so, but id like to hear any other concerns if you have any.

23
Is this a secure messaging app? (lemmy.ml)
submitted 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
34 comments fedilink
 

https://github.com/positive-intentions/chat

probably not... Because I'm comparing it to everything... but id like to share some details about how my app works so you can tell me what im missing. id like to have wording in my app to say something like "most secure chat app in the world"... i probably cant do that because it doesnt qualify... but i want to understand why?

im not an expert on cyber security. im sure there are many gaps in my knowlege in this domain.

using javascript, i created a chat app. it is using peerjs-server to create an encrypted webrtc connection. this is then used to exchange additional encryption keys from cryptography functions built into browsers to add a redundent layer of encryption. the key exchange is done like diffie-helman over webrtc (which can be considered secure when exchanged over public channels)

  • i sometimes recieve feedback like "javascript is inherently insecure". i disagree with this and have opened sourced my cryptography module. its basically a thin wrapper around vanilla crypto functions of a browser. a prev post on the matter.

  • another concern for my kind of app (PWA) is that the developer may introduce malicious code. this is an important point for which i open sourced the project and give instructions for selfhosting. selhosting this app has some unique features. unlike many other selfhosted projects, this app can be hosted on github-pages for free (instructions are provided in the readme). im also working on introducing a way that users can selfhost federated modules. a prev post on the matter.

  • to prevent things like browser extensions, the app uses strict CSP headers to prevent unauthorised code from running. selfhosting users should take note of this when setting up their own instance.

  • i received feedback the Signal/Simplex protocol is great, etc. id like to compare that opinion to the observation in how my todo app demo works. (the work is all experimental work-in-progress and far from finished). the demo shows a simple functionality for a basic decentralized todo list. this should already be reasonably secure. i could add a few extra endpoints for exchanging keys diffie-helman style. which at this point is relatively trivial to implement. I think it's simplicity could be a security feature.

  • the key detail that makes this approach unique, is because as a webapp, unlike other solutions, users have a choice of using any device/os/browser.

i think if i stick to the principle of avoiding using any kind of "required" service provider (myself included) and allowing the frontend and the peerjs-server to be hosted independently, im on track for creating a chat system with the "fewest moving parts". im hope you will agree this is true p2p and i hope i can use this as a step towards true privacy and security. security might be further improved by using a trusted VPN.

i created a threat-model for the app in hopes that i could get a pro-bono security assessment, but understandable the project is too complicated for pro-bono work.

while there are several similar apps out there like mine. i think mine is distinctly a different approach. so its hard to find best practices for the functionalities i want to achieve. in particular security practices to use when using p2p technology.

(note: this app is an unstable, experiment, proof of concept and not ready to replace any other app or service. It's far from finished and provided for testing and demo purposes only. This post is to get feedback on the app to determine if i'm going in the right direction for a secure chat app)

20
WebRTC IP Leaking (lemmy.ml)
 

i want to understand more about WebRTC security when using vpn. id like to know if it is more secure with VPN than without… or even if its recommended to use WebRTC with VPN.

i created a webrtc demo: https://chat.positive-intentions.com/#/webrtc (the corresponding code its created with: https://github.com/positive-intentions/chat/blob/staging/src/components/pages/webrtc/WebRTC.jsx)

if i generate a “WebRTC offer” then i see a bunch of information including my IP address.

if i do the same with VPN, i see that my ip address isnt in that payload.

following the information here: https://thehackernews.com/2015/02/webrtc-leaks-vpn-ip-address.html?m=1

and using the demo here: https://ipleak.net/

it seems even with vpn, the local ISP ip seems detected.

a recurring concern ive had on reddit about the security of my app is that webrtc exposes ip addresses. im investigating using the app with vpn. it seems to work like normal.

in the example details given above, i see while the local ISP IP is exposed, the personal ip address is still hidden. im sure what is exposed there is not worthless, but it could help users with privacy and security.

on the back of this investigation id like to see if i can add something like a toggle in my app called “enforce VPN” which will first check to see if you are on a vpn, and if you are, open the rest of the app.

my app is using peerjs-server as the connection broker. this is a third party i have no contractual agreement to provide me with a service. it could help to hide your IP from this service.

22
P2P Messaging and State Management: Todo List Demo. (github.com)
submitted 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
3 comments fedilink
 

a decentralized P2P todo list app to to demo the P2P framework used in the chat app.

https://github.com/positive-intentions/chat

a wrapper around peerjs. peerjs is good, but it can become complicated to use on complicated projects. This implementation is an attempt to create something like a framework/guideline for decentralized messaging and state management.

https://positive-intentions.github.io/p2p/?path=/story/demo-todo-list--basic

how it works:

  1. crypto-random ids are generated and used to connect to peerjs-server (to broker a webrtc connection)
  2. peer1 shares this ID to another browser/tab/person (use the storybook props)
  3. peers are then automatically connected.
  4. add todo item
  5. edit todo item

There are several things here to improve like:

  • general cleanup throughout (its early stage for this project and missing all the nice things like good-code and unit-tests)
  • adding extra encryption keys for messages comming in and going out (webrtc mandates encryption already)
  • handling message callbacks
  • key rotation
14
P2P Framework (lemmy.ml)
 

p2p.positive-intentions.com

github.com/positive-intentions/p2p

a thin wrapper around peerjs with some functionalities for "intuitive" p2p communication.

this is a lighweight version of what is being used in our chat app. it will be developed with the aim to replace what is being used.

this is early development on this and it's missing all the bells-and-whistles seen in the chat app. It's an unstable experimental work-in-progress. it may contain bugs and/or incomplete features. provided for demo and educational purposes only.

1
Decentralized Encrypted P2P Chat (chat.positive-intentions.com)
 

Id like to introduce you to a decentralized chat app that works purely in the browser. Breaking away from traditional solutions that require registration and installation.

A decentralized infrastructure has many unique challenges and this is a unique approach. Ive taken previsous feedback and made updates. Its important to note, it is still a work-in-progress and provided for testing/review/feedback purposes. it would be great if you can tell me what you think.

Some of the features of the app include:

  • Free
  • Decentralised
  • No cookies
  • P2P encrypted
  • No registration
  • No installing
  • Group messaging
  • Text messaging
  • Multimedia messaging
  • Offline messaging (LAN/hotspot)
  • File transfer
  • Video calls
  • Data-ownership
  • Selfhosted (optional)
  • Screensharing (on desktop browsers)
  • OS notifications (where supported)

With no registration or installation required, its easy to get started.

20
Decentralized Encrypted P2P Chat (chat.positive-intentions.com)
submitted 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
3 comments fedilink
 

Id like to introduce you to a decentralized chat app that works purely in the browser. Breaking away from traditional solutions that require registration and installation.

A decentralized infrastructure has many unique challenges and this is a unique approach. Ive taken previsous feedback and made updates. Its important to note, it is still a work-in-progress and provided for testing/review/feedback purposes. it would be great if you can tell me what you think.

Some of the features of the app include:

  • Free
  • Decentralised
  • No cookies
  • P2P encrypted
  • No registration
  • No installing
  • Group messaging
  • Text messaging
  • Multimedia messaging
  • Offline messaging (LAN/hotspot)
  • File transfer
  • Video calls
  • Data-ownership
  • Selfhosted (optional)
  • Screensharing (on desktop browsers)
  • OS notifications (where supported)

With no registration or installation required, its easy to get started.

50
Decentralized Encrypted P2P Chat (chat.positive-intentions.com)
submitted 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
26 comments fedilink
 

chat.positive-intentions.com

https://github.com/positive-intentions/chat

I'm excited to share with you an instant messaging application I've been working on that might interest you. This is a chat app designed to work within your browser, with a focus on browser-based security and decentralization.

What makes this app unique is that it doesn't rely on messaging servers to function. Instead, it works based on your browser's javascript capabilities, so even low-end devices should work.

Here are some features of the app:

  • Encrypted messaging: Your messages are encrypted, making them more secure.
  • File sharing: Easily share files using WebRTC technology and QR codes.
  • Voice and video calls: Connect with others through voice and video calls.
  • Shared virtual space: Explore a shared mixed-reality space.
  • Image board: Browse and share images in a scrollable format.

Your security is a top priority. Here's how the app keeps you safe:

  • Decentralized authentication: No central server is required for login, making it harder for anyone to gain unauthorized access.
  • Unique IDs: Your ID is cryptographically random, adding an extra layer of security.
  • End-to-end encryption: Your messages are encrypted from your device to the recipient's device, ensuring only you and the recipient can read them.
  • Local data storage: Your data is stored only on your device, not on any external servers.
  • Self-hostable: You have the option to host the app on your own server if you prefer.

The app is still in the early stages and I'm exploring what's possible with this technology. I'd love to hear your feedback on the idea and the current state of the app. If you have any feature requests or ideas, I'm all ears in the comments below!

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

The live app

About the app

Docs

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