Let's be honest, if the US did something like this, the ultra wealthy who are already not paying taxes would find ways to game more money out of the system.
But it could still help a lot of people.
this post was submitted on 29 Nov 2024
320 points (98.5% liked)
You Should Know
33426 readers
1383 users here now
YSK - for all the things that can make your life easier!
The rules for posting and commenting, besides the rules defined here for lemmy.world, are as follows:
Rules (interactive)
Rule 1- All posts must begin with YSK.
All posts must begin with YSK. If you're a Mastodon user, then include YSK after @youshouldknow. This is a community to share tips and tricks that will help you improve your life.
Rule 2- Your post body text must include the reason "Why" YSK:
**In your post's text body, you must include the reason "Why" YSK: It’s helpful for readability, and informs readers about the importance of the content. **
Rule 3- Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here.
Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here. Breaking this rule will not get you or your post removed, but it will put you at risk, and possibly in danger.
Rule 4- No self promotion or upvote-farming of any kind.
That's it.
Rule 5- No baiting or sealioning or promoting an agenda.
Posts and comments which, instead of being of an innocuous nature, are specifically intended (based on reports and in the opinion of our crack moderation team) to bait users into ideological wars on charged political topics will be removed and the authors warned - or banned - depending on severity.
Rule 6- Regarding non-YSK posts.
Provided it is about the community itself, you may post non-YSK posts using the [META] tag on your post title.
Rule 7- You can't harass or disturb other members.
If you harass or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.
If you are a member, sympathizer or a resemblant of a movement that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of a group of people and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you will be banned on sight.
For further explanation, clarification and feedback about this rule, you may follow this link.
Rule 8- All comments should try to stay relevant to their parent content.
Rule 9- Reposts from other platforms are not allowed.
Let everyone have their own content.
Rule 10- The majority of bots aren't allowed to participate here.
Unless included in our Whitelist for Bots, your bot will not be allowed to participate in this community. To have your bot whitelisted, please contact the moderators for a short review.
Partnered Communities:
You can view our partnered communities list by following this link. To partner with our community and be included, you are free to message the moderators or comment on a pinned post.
Community Moderation
For inquiry on becoming a moderator of this community, you may comment on the pinned post of the time, or simply shoot a message to the current moderators.
Credits
Our icon(masterpiece) was made by @clen15!
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
Also, in “things that will never happen in the US” we have universal healthcare
In the US it's called "tipping"
This gets proposed as a way to implement basic income (UBI). It is only equivalent when the lowest tax bracket is equal to the NIT.
ex: if NIT of 25% up to $40k, and 25% income tax rate up to $50k, then at $40k income, you would pay 0 net income tax. At 0 income, you would receive $10k, and at $50k income, you'd pay $2500. Every $10k of income results in $2500 extra taxes or less of a refund.
Milton Friedman's version of NIT was at 50% for low income ($20k), and then fairly low tax bracket rates (20%) above that. This means that the poorest people are taxed very high on income, and middle to high incomes pay a lower rate. Welfare and unemployment systems often use such a 50% clawback. It is a significant disincentive to work, unless you will make a lot during a year.
Refundable tax credits is a similar system of permitting net refunds to people even if they pay no income taxes.
Wouldn’t it make more sense to, like, have the first 12k dollars tax free and then increase the percentage for everything exceeding this threshold? The more money you earn, the more taxes you can afford to pay. Especially when you earn only little money this is important for you to survive, while $100k/yr managers could easily afford to pay 50k of those in taxes
Living on $50k/year is not easy. The federal poverty line for a family of 4 is $31,200, and many consider those numbers to be much too low.
There's absolutely no need to target normal American households with more taxes. Billionaires already don't pay their (too low) taxes and have far, far more than they need that they've taken from the labor of others. Actually taxing them appropriately would cover everything we could possibly need and then some.
We should be raising substantially the minimum income needed before you have to pay taxes. It's fucking stupid to be levying a bunch of tax on people who are struggling to make ends meet.
What? $50k is even in the richest European countries about as much as 2 people earn per year. €25k/year is the median, give or take 2k. Subtracted are about 5k in taxes.
Crazy how expensive the US is…
Everything is relative, who made the product, how long did it take to get where it is, who had to be paid to get it there, how far did it travel, how many tariffs or taxes were paid between here or there, etc, shit Americans forget entirely while voting.
Yeah, European salaries across the board are generally lower than the US by quite a bit, but we also typically pay for a lot more services than Europeans do as generally a lot more is privatized (healthcare, etc.). $100k is typically what most middle class Americans are striving for in order to have a relatively "comfortable" life, buy a house, etc. (though honestly, the housing market today is so fucking insane that even that isn't really enough to buy a house in many places now). The median household income in 2023 was $80,610, for reference.
The system you are describing is what most countries use. This is basically just an extension of that intended for people who make so little they need extra assistance.
Actually, the US Earned Income Tax Credit is basically a version of negative income tax.
It is not. EITC is a tax reduction for the first few $1000s of employment income. NIT is a tax refund even if you pay no taxes.
EIT is a refundable tax credit. Meaning if your total tax burden is less than the credit, federal government will pay you the difference. A part of the child tax credit is the same.
A negative income that is better than that. It says, if you're working, but only making $12k, the state will give you money so you now have $20k. (Not real numbers.)
The idea is that it incentivizes participation in the work force, with hopes that the extra money helps you get stable and move up the payscale where you may stop needing the external support.
How does that incentivizes workforce participation? You're giving them money to not work, I think graduated taxes should just not have the NIT portion.
No. If you reported $0 in income on your taxes, you get nothing. There's a minimum income to get anything back. So if you don't work, you get nothing, so you are incentivized to find a job of some kind.
But that minimum should be quite low and attainable.
NIT is specifically letting people start in a refund position. 0 income gets the largest total refund.
Ah got it.
You say negative income tax, I hear business subsidies.
That's just equivalent to UBI, isn't it? If you pay out UBI and get the money for it from taxes, then there's an income level below which people net gain money and above which people net lose money.
It is UBI with a "clawback". Conservative (Friedman's NIT version) and left wing (called Guaranteed income) versions of UBI like to place an ultra high tax/clawback rate on the lowest income levels. It is same as UBI if lower tax brackets are not the first bracket after "personal UBI received is paid back in taxes"
How is it a negative income tax if they are taking money from the lowest bracket? That's the bracket where an NIT gives money instead of taking it.
A NIT of 50% up to $20k income is equivalent to UBI of $10k with 50% as the lowest tax bracket. Under both, you pay 0 net tax at exactly $20k income, and you get a $10k refund at 0 other income.
Either one is still a 50% marginal tax rate no matter the name. On every $ you earn you only keep 50cents.
This still doesn't make sense to me. The UBI clawback that starts small and grows with each bracket makes sense. At 0 earned you get 20,000. And it's not until you hit the poverty line that it starts gradually being taxed back. So a family of four would pay 5 or 10 percent back if they were in the 40k-50k bucket.
It seems to me you're not discussing a NIT which pays money to workers, but rather a national minimum wage through the tax system. In this case 10,000 dollars. An NIT doesn't need a clawback because it diminishes as you go up in tax brackets. A UBI uses it to remove administrative overhead from issuing it and to make it clear that every adult, employed or not, is eligible.
NIT is paid to workers and non workers alike. As is UBI. The maximum NIT refund you get is at 0 earned income. When you earn income, your refund is lowered. That starts at $1 of income. Even if it is called a negative tax, it is still a positive marginal tax rate that reduces your net income for every $ earned.
An NIT refund comes from the IRS, while UBI can come from IRS or another department. They are still highly related concepts. Other than the most famous NIT proposal has a 50% tax rate on the lower incomes, and frequenly left leaning politicians, instead of UBI propose Guaranteed Minimum Income, with tax rates of 50% to 100% on the lowest incomes.
Sensible UBI plans use normal tax rates with higher rates on upper incomes if needed.
When you say a tax rate of 50-100 percent, are you referring to the negative tax rate?
Guaranteed minimum income plans are either a 100% tax, when literally, all get a minimum income of say $20k, if you earned less than $20k, you don't keep any of those earnings. Practical, still left of center plans do change this to a more modest 50% clawback rate similar to welfare/EI. The most famous NIT proposal had a 50% tax rate on the lowest income. That is the exact same as the flawed GMI plans.
That sounds like a great way to do a poverty trap when you could simply add 20k-reported income to their account. It's entirely unnecessary to the concept of an NIT.
That
If you mean 50% tax bracket for the poor, yes it is a poverty trap. UBI is an improvement over welfare and employment insurance because it doesn't trap people into not working due to high clawbacks. There is also administration and annoyance savings from not policing/applying for benefits.
No, negative income tax usually requires that you make some money and file taxes. UBI doesn't.
One has the intention of encouraging workforce participation. The other tries to help everyone.
view more: next ›