That's something that I could get behind.
this post was submitted on 01 Jul 2023
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Hypocrite
Lol not even remotely
Uh yes. Example: What was all that flak when bakery's denied service to lesbian couples. What is next deny service to whites? Hate is going full circle, hence the hypocrisy. Shit like that is only giving ammunition to the othersides.
I don't think you know what the word hypocrite means.
Striving for equality and acceptance by promoting hate towards others beliefs. Yes, I'd say that is hypocritical. What word would you use to describe them?
Hate towards beiefs is fine, and I think you'd even agree with that. Would you agree it's bad to believe that a subset groups of people should be removed from the world? I would hope you agree that that is a bad belief and doesn't need to be accepted.
But it's also missing the point. Being gay isn't a belief, it's just the way someone is - just like race, just like gender. It's not a belief like a political stance is.
They're two different things and it's not hypocritical to treat them differently.
Hate the belief not the believer.
:-)
This is just code for bigotry. I don't have the mood necessary for politely explaining it so I won't.
We did a case study on this in college. The bakery didn't refuse service to them, they told the couple that they were more than welcome to pick any of the predesigned cakes they had, but the bakery wouldn't make a pride specific cake.
the bakery wouldn't make a pride specific cake
LOL in other words they would not serve them.
Quick side note: you are within your rights to refuse service based on political affiliation full stop -- it's not protected under the equal protections clause.
That being said, the issue is not about denying service full-stop, but the right to refuse expression of values you find to be wrong. Believe it or not, these cases are important for everyone and guarantees that the state can't force you to create messaging in support of (i.e. endorse, which is a form of speech) something you disagree with.
It's not granting the right to discriminate. It's protecting your first amendment right to not be compelled to engage in speech you disagree with.
For example, say I go to a bakery run by devout Muslims and request a cake that depicts a cross with the phrase "only through Jesus may you find eternal life" underneath. That baker may be uncomfortable with the idea of creating that design as it not only goes against their own sincerely held beliefs, but may conflict with some negative views they may hold of Christians or Jesus (or even the particular denomination of the customer).
That Muslim baker has every right to refuse the design of the cake on free speech grounds. Religion is a protected class in the equal protections clause, so the Christian may feel like they're being discriminated against, but it's the message (which is considered to be speech) and not the individual being a Christian causing the issue.
That Muslim baker cannot blanket-refuse any Christians from buying any cakes. If that Christian customer instead asks for a blank cake that they'll decorate themselves, the baker must sell it to them or else they are violating the equal protections clause. In that case, service is being refused based on the traits of the customer rather than on the particular message being expressed on the cake.
It's silly and I think people would be better off just accepting the work and taking the money. If I was aware of a business that made cakes, websites, whatever -- but refused certain designs based on their personal views, I would simply discontinue any further support of them. I'd prefer a business who puts their own shit aside and serves whomever wants to pay them.. but to compel them to suck it up and either compromise on their views or close up shop is directly contradictory to one of the most important rights we recognize here -- to speak freely and without cohersion from the state.
The business owner isn't doing anything wrong with their signs, but they're completely missing the point of the decision and comes off as a bit silly.
What you described was not the actual outcome of the ruling.
The wedding website designer did not give them a website with no mention of being gay, that they could fill in themselves. The website designer was allowed to fully refuse them any kind of website at all. Just like refusing a blank wedding cake because the couple is gay.
The justification of the decision was not in good faith. It stepped away over the bounds of protecting against compelled speech. And they deserve to feel the consequences.
If the wedding designer has a "blank wedding site" package premade and refused to sell it to them then I don't think that's right. But if all of the websites are bespoke designs where the designer must create something for the couple, it's fuzzy.
Personally, I don't know. There is, and should be, a line between personal life and work life. But depending on what you do for a living, the line can be a thin one or a thick one.
For example, if I churn out hundreds of identical 3D printed characters and sell them at an open-air market, I shouldn't be allowed to single out a customer and refuse business just because I don't like the look of them. But if I'm a graphic artist, I shouldn't be compelled to draw something that I find objectionable. Eg: I might be a woman who has been sexually abused in the past, and someone wants a sexually graphic depictions of a sexual assault (like the Guns 'N' Roses "Appetite for Destruction" cover).
Those examples are easy to comprehend because they're extremes. The difficulty in interpreting the outcome of the case is trying to bring the examples closer to the center.
Can you refuse to sell handpainted greetings to someone you don't like? No. It doesn't matter that it's a creative endeavour. If you created the product without coercion, and are now selling them at a stall in your local town, it's not ok to refuse a simple transaction because you don't like the buyer. What if you also offer a service of writing a message in fancy calligraphy on the inside? Can you refuse to write something you find objectionable? I think so.
I don't think it comes down to who your customer is. I think it comes down to what you're being asked to do.
Edit: lol, what a typo. Thanks swype keyboard!
Someone else compared being gay to being racist, and now you're comparing being gay to sexual assault.
These are disingenuous comparisons at best, dangerously homophobic at worst.
WAT. I was giving extreme examples to illustrate that personal opinions sometimes have zero effect on your work, and sometimes they really really affect your work. And I specifically called out the fact that they were extreme examples:
Those examples are easy to comprehend because they’re extremes.
How the hell was that comparing being gay to sexual assault? How come you didn't use the other example and accuse me of comparing being gay to 3d printing?
The whole goddamn case was not in good faith.
The supposed customer for a gay wedding website turned out to actually be a married straight dude.
This is the best take I’ve seen in this thread so far. It’s an issue of compelled speech, not of this or that demographic or ideology of the client or service. I’m not trying to dog whistle here, I hate that any business would exercise this in a hateful way, but another example of the reverse would be compelling a black-owned bakery to write an awful racist message on a cake. Obviously no person should be compelled to say what they don’t believe, regardless of the level of asshattery they dabble in.
I don't think it makes sense to compare being gay to being racist.
Alright I’m sorry, I don’t either. Which is actually why I pointed out specifically that I hate that anyone would use this in a hateful way. I’m surprised you think that I do think that it’s the same. Is there something in my comment which indicates that I believe that?
You reached for a completely non sequitur analogy.
compelling a black-owned bakery to write an awful racist message on a cake
It's not at all like that. If you're in the business of making cakes, and if you make cakes that have people's names on them for their weddings, and then you refuse a cake that looks like all the other cakes to a couple because you don't approve of which two consenting adults want their names on the goddamn cake because you just think exactly only one peen should be named in their relationship, that is just bigoted bullshit, and yes, this free country should stamp that shit out and not apologize for it, and we should all burn sparklers and celebrate that this free country offers us all the same freedom to buy a cake from the already-putting-peoples-names-on-wedding-cakes baker. There is no analog there for hateful messages on cakes whatsoever.
Edit: And if I missed your point entirely, I apologize. I'm not trying to be combative with anyone, but I am trying to stop what seems like people rationalizing this situation as having anything to do with free speech. I emphatically believe that it is a shitty excuse to apologize for a clearly biased agenda from the people who wormed their way into the US Supreme Court.
Yeah sorry, a couple of people sound like they think I meant that, I must not have articulated myself well.
If this decision protects that cake maker from doing so, then I would worry about it. Imagining EVERY cake were the same, obviously that would be wrong. I’m just trying to say that it seems like the law has more to do with the content of the message. If a couple wanted a cake saying “only gay sex” or something similarly funny, or a straight couple wanted a cake saying “all gays are bad”, I would feel that while we don’t need to be tolerant of the former business person, or the latter client, neither business person should be compelled to write the message on the cake. In the former case, they should be compelled to make a blank or similar cake with no message, simply not compelled to write the message.
Again, I’m not a legal expert so if I’m misreading the decision, that’s a different story.
You could always do this. But you'd be a damn idiot to antagonize half a potential customer base but ... Well that's one way to run a business.
I may be misinformed - but I was led to believe this is a book shop and therefore unlikely to lose many customers
the potential customers that would already point their finger at you screaming "shame" if they saw you do business with people they dislike? Good riddance.
Transcription for the blind: Storefront with two paper signs taped to the window. Left sign says "Since the supreme court had ruled that businesses can discriminate...NO SALES TO TRUMP SUPPORTERS. Right sign says "We only sell to churches that fly the pride flag" and has an illustrated image of a pride flag and a church.
-Transcription done by a human volunteer. Let me know how I can do better.
Good ai human not robot
*hand out treats
Good human
Good human
We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, for any reason! :D
Especially racist sexist homophobic chud dipshit fascist bootlickers.
This was always legal. I'm an attorney, I do not represent any Trump supporters. If a client says something favorable about trump, they are no longer my client. They are just too stupid, judgement too poor, don't understand difference between reality and fantasy. They make the absolute worst clients.
If they're trump supporters... they probably wouldn't be paying you anyway.
Nah. Many of them have stumbled their way into money. Lots of trade people and small businesses, which makes up my typical clientele, others are sons and daughters of second or third generation union humps. Many grew up with one working parent being able to provide and that union parent has one or two pensions and is still hustling jobs. So, many of them can afford a lawyer. They are unfailingly whiney babies who are an awful combination of privileged existence and self agrandizement. I blame social media for validating their most half-baked ideas and emotional reactions.
I'm sure they can afford a lawyer. I was more referring to the link between being a Trump supporter and Trump's own ... habit of not paying his lawyers.
And they learned it from watching Trump.
...I feel like you've got some stories you could be sharing
I mean, yeah, at that point they're just a big fat liability.
This guy laws
MAGA isn't a protected class. This has always been allowed.
To be fair if I see a sign saying they support Trump, GOP, or anti-LGBT I keep walking on by. I have seen many places that say if you are a bigot, sexist, or racist you are not welcome here. Those are the places I spend my money at.
There's a pizza place in a town near me that has "Make Pizza Great Again" permanently painted on their sign in huge letters. Needless to say, they will never get my business.
There's a place near me that I was planning on eating at. Then I saw they had a "Back the Bleu" burger. They won't get my business.
Don't forget the "Jesus fish" on their logo.
I'm from out west, so it was a very foreign concept for me when I visited my sister in Arkansas and saw a lot of "Christian Family Auto" type places with Jesus swag trying to win over business.
Exactly. A Trump sign at a business guarantees that business won't get my money now or in the future.
I stopped going to a dentist because her office looked like Trump campaign headquarters. Signs and shit everywhere. She otherwise seemed nice and competent but hell no.
There's a large grocery store chain here that the owner was at the Jan 6th insurrection. A lot of people, including myself, refuse to shop there now.
Was it Publix? I know the owner’s a huge supporter of conservative causes— really hope she’s not also an insurrectionist. (Asking bc I’m trying to avoid giving business to Walgreens, and just started sending prescriptions to Publix instead.)
No it isn't anything that big.
WAIT! NOT LIKE THAT THOUGH! IT WAS ONLY SUPPOSED TO KEEP THE GAYS OUT!
/s
But that's one way to do it. No churches, no religious people, no trump supporters, no republicans allowed at all. Give them a taste of their own medicine.
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