this post was submitted on 25 Aug 2024

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252

Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app? (blog.cryptographyengineering.com)

submitted 3 weeks ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 34 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (7 children)

If Telegram is considered an encrypted messenger, then FB messenger should be too. Works exactly the same. I don’t know about you, but being the same level as FB messenger should speak volumes to whether Telegram is “encrypted” or not 🙄

[–] [email protected] 17 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

FB messenger should be too. Works exactly the same. 🙄

Facebook licensed Signal's encryption: https://signal.org/blog/facebook-messenger/

[–] [email protected] 23 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (3 children)

Yeah, the fact that FB messenger uses Signal protocol, means the encryption is better recognized than the one used in Telegram. But the lack of on-by-default or the need to drill in a few options before enabling secret chats.. I mean it’s even named the same thing as Telegram.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

the fact that FB messenger uses Signal protocol, means the encryption is better than the one used in Telegram.

MTProto 2 has not been cracked. MTProto 1 had a weakness and Telegram addressed it. That was many years ago. I'm not aware that MTProto 2 has ever been cracked in all these years. Telegram's unwillingness to cooperate with governments is an additional security layer.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

In my OP, I was merely referring to how FB Messenger and Telegram functions the same.

Speaking to the protocol used for encryption is a moot point… because even if MTProto 2 was better, it’s still not enabled by default in both messengers.

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[–] [email protected] 151 points 3 weeks ago (7 children)

No.

As a kind of a weird bonus, activating end-to-end encryption in Telegram is oddly difficult for non-expert users to actually do.

[–] [email protected] 48 points 3 weeks ago (19 children)

As a kind of a weird bonus, activating end-to-end encryption in Telegram is oddly difficult for non-expert users to actually do.

No, it's not. It's very easy. In the bottom right corner there is a pencil button to compose a new message and right there it asks which tpye of chat to start. Secret chat is the second topmost option after group chat. Really not hidden or complicated at all.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

It’s three clicks. And it opens a separate chat from the existing one. It’s obscure enough that you could say the UX deprioritizes (which at best is not an actively malicious design choice) usage of end-to-end encryption.

[+] [email protected] -6 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

It’s three clicks.

So it's only three clicks, ergo easy.

And it opens a separate chat from the existing one.

I don't see the problem. The secret one has the lock icon to clearly mark it. There's no way one would accidentally pick the wrong chat. Delete the old, unencrypted one to be sure.

It’s obscure enough that you could say the UX deprioritizes (which at best is not an actively malicious design choice) usage of end-to-end encryption.

I agreed in another comment that there should be an "encrypted by default" option somewhere. I'm not claiming that it's perfect but the claim in the blog that it's super complicated is just not true. At least calls are P2P-encrypted by default.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Ah good point, gotta delete the old unencrypted chat too to avoid confusion. That’s definitely more than just 3 clicks.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

If you’re talking to 30 people, it’s 90 clicks. It might be 3 clicks if you know where to look, but end of the day, even if you know where to find it, that’s still that many clicks times how many people you chat with. It’s not ideal. I wouldn’t say it’s complicated sure, but it’s not easy.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

If you’re talking to 30 people, it’s 90 clicks.

Uh, so? A "compose message" button is the approach many communication apps use, including e-mail. Don't get me started how many clicks it is to GPG-encrypt e-mails...

It’s not ideal.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself that I agree on that part. You act as I would disagree. I don't. It could be better but it's also not a complicated nightmare as the blog author makes it out to be.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)

Right. But it’s also not exactly “easy” which is what you’re saying it is.

If easy was a sliding scale. Easy would be enabled by default. Hard would be making it obscure and hard to find. I would say it’s definitely closer to the harder to find side. But that’s just me. But 3 clicks, and having to switch chats and maybe delete the old one to avoid confusion, none of that is easy.

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[–] [email protected] 64 points 3 weeks ago (9 children)

It should be a setting to always use encrypted chat, and it should probably prompt you when you first login.

Better yet, don't have an option to not have encrypted chats. I don't see a reason to not have everything E2EE all the time.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 weeks ago

But then you couldn't get that juicy user and conversation data.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

It should be a setting to always use encrypted chat, and it should probably prompt you when you first login.

I don't disagree but the claim that you quoted was that it's complicated to initiate and as I explained it's not. Also secret chats stay in the messages list, so you can go back to an initiated secret chat and pick up there without any additional fiddling.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

If you have to enable it every time, it's complicated enough that most people won't bother. Maybe they'll do it once or twice out of novelty, but it's not going to become a habit.

I only consider something "encrypted" if it's actually encrypted by default, or at least prompts to enable it permanently on first launch. Otherwise, it's not an "encrypted" chat, it just has the option to have some chats encrypted.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

If you have to enable it every time, it’s complicated

But you don't. As I already explained: secret chats stay in the messages list, so you can go back to an initiated secret chat and pick up there without any additional fiddling.

I have plenty of encrypted chats that I don't have to enable every time I want to send one. I don't understand where this misconception comes from.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Surely you talk to more than one or two people, no? If you have to manually check a box or something every time you start a new message with someone, people are going to stop doing it.

It's not an encrypted chat app. It's an unencrypted chat app that has an option for encrypted chats. Whether something is encrypted or not depends on how most people use it and what the defaults are.

Signal is an encrypted chat app. E2EE is the default and AFAIK only behavior. Telegram can be encrypted, but it's not by default, and defaults matter.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago (9 children)

Surely you talk to more than one or two people, no? If you have to manually check a box or something every time you start a new message with someone, people are going to stop doing it.

Maybe you get acquainted to 100 new people every day, so your day is a constant chore of starting secret chats all the time. I don't. I doubt regular people do. Just start the secret chat once and then pick it up later.

Signal is an encrypted chat app.

Except for the locally stored data which is not encrypted and Signal's attitude is that device encryption is up to the user.