"Zelensky follows the laws in the Ukraine Constitution while the country continues to be at war"
- FTFY, dickbag headline writer
this post was submitted on 07 Nov 2023
0 points (50.0% liked)
World News
32301 readers
443 users here now
News from around the world!
Rules:
-
Please only post links to actual news sources, no tabloid sites, etc
-
No NSFW content
-
No hate speech, bigotry, propaganda, etc
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
Yeah didn't this come up as a clickbait non-issue last year?
The Ukrainian constitution prevents Parliamentary elections during wartime, not Presidential ones.
it's not that he is refusing to hold elections. headline is, of course, misleading.
the country's constitution literally prohibits elections during martial law, a state the country has been in since the day russia started the war.
the country’s constitution literally prohibits elections during martial law,
a state the country has been in since the day russia started the war.
Obama's Nazi coup started the war in 2014, remember?
Sounds like a democracy we should continue supporting right??
Yes
Constitutions can be changed (Alabama's 6th constitution was amended 977 times before they made a 7th constitution last year, for example). Headline is definitely inflammatory, but just because you happen to be in the position of dictator doesn't mean can't work towards not being one.
As an Alabamian. We are NOT a role model to anyone for anything. If anything we are a cautionary tale of how not to do things. Like, your argument is deeply flawed the second you say “You could do what Alabama did”.
A broken clock is still right twice a day.
And I bet "Zelensky amends Ukraine's constitution during wartime" would make similar headlines.
There's fair criticism to be made of Zelensky, I'm sure. However, not holding an election during wartime, which is backed by the constitution and most Ukrainians, is not one of them.
Not really criticizing him. My criticism is the weird constitution worship used as non-argument that simply begs the question.
So they amend their constitution. During a war. To force people into the streets to vote.
How does the government make sure the election is fair? Some people won't be able to vote due to danger. Some will be attacked. Some areas are occupied, and the occupation lines may change during the election.
If they tried to run an election now, Russia would publish their own results showing that the occupied areas voted for Putin. Trying to run elections is hard enough in normal times, doing so with Russia literally holding a large swath of your country is impossible.
Amending the constitution or holding national elections (among other things) are prohibited during martial law.
Pass a new constitution then. Could be identical minus those two things.
What exactly is the process for a complete replacement in the constitution in Ukraine? Is it something that can feasibly be accomplished during wartime?
Edit: apparently the process is "you can't" https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/389-19#Text (Article 19 Section 1)
So basically there is no way for Zelensky to change anything about the situation without just fraglantly breaking the law (or declaring an end to martial law during wartime, which would be beyond stupid). Pretty hard to argue he's a "dictator" when literally all he's doing is following the law that was out in place well before he was elected.
Now, if the war ends and he still refuses to hold a election, I'll be right with you in calling for action, but I fail to see any fault with his current course on this specific issue
An old constitution can't control a new one. Its literally replacing the old one. Nothing it says is relevant.
So, in your opinion - in order for Zelensky to not be a dictator, he has to break all the existing rules of law in order to completely replace the existing constitution? And he should be allowed to do this unilaterally? And this would make him not a dictator? He's not a fucking monarch dude, he's the elected head of state - he doesn't have supreme authority to do whatever the fuck he feels like.
The foundation of democracy is the idea that our elected officials have to abide by the rules of law that are already in place, including (and especially) those laws that concern how other laws are made. Otherwise any elected official could just declare themselves the new supreme ruler and toss out every law that limits their power.
And that's all putting aside the question of how you would even hold an election in war ravaged Ukraine right now, a significant portion of which is under hostile occupation lol
So, in your opinion - in order for Zelensky to not be a dictator, he has to break all the existing rules of law in order to completely replace the existing constitution?
Not unilaterally, no. The constitution establishes a dictatorship, therefore it would need to be replaced or amended to no longer have a dictator. Alternatively, they could rescind martial law, thereby ending suspension of elections and no longer be a dictatorship. And that would be required to allow them to amend the current constitution following its rules. Not saying any of those are good ideas. Just listing the options they have to not be a dictatorship (technically he could just step down as well, but that wouldn't change their government structure; just change who the dictator is).
Not his fault he's a dictator. But dictator literally refers to someone who rules in time of emergency. So by definition he's a dictator. I don't mean it as a personal insult of the person who happens to be in the position nor am I saying its outrageous for someone to keep such a position.
He’s not a fucking monarch dude, he’s the elected head of state - he doesn’t have supreme authority to do whatever the fuck he feels like.
Which is irrelevant to the question of whether he's a dictator or not. Don't forget that the first dictator most people probably think of was also an elected head of state. Obviously I'm not comparing the actions that the two did using that position. Simply being a dictator doesn't say anything about whether their rule is justified or whether they're committing atrocities. I do think leaving the loophole in the constitution is a liability, so it eventually should be changed. But its not exactly a high priority right now.
And that’s all putting aside the question of how you would even hold an election in war ravaged Ukraine right now, a significant portion of which is under hostile occupation lol
Irrelevant, since my critique actually has nothing to do with Ukraine, but about constitutions in general.
Irrelevant, since my critique actually has nothing to do with Ukraine, but about constitutions in general.
So you're advocating for him to break the constitution he was elected to uphold, to hold an election that would have to be incomplete and unfair - all so that you, a person who isn't even a Ukrainian can feel better about the situation? Despite the fact that there's no call for this from the actual Ukranian public?
That's certainly an opinion to have lol
but just because you happen to be in the position of dictator doesn't mean can't work towards not being one.
I'm pretty sure he's been doing everything he possibly can do to get out of this state of martial law, so I suppose that'll be satisfying for you?
I'd be interested to see the comments if this were Putin.
Feel free to check back in with us when Russia is the victim of a major invasion
I'm just not sure why being the invaded party is the deciding factor here. Do the people not get a say in who leads their defense, only their offense?
Ok so you're being intentionally obtuse. Got it 👍
No, I'm not. Could you please at least engage in the conversation if you're going to reply?
they don't owe you shit, troll. begone
Having a different perspective than you doesn't make me a troll. I never thought I'd be called a troll for saying maybe they should conduct an election.
violating their own constitution. fuck off, you know what you're doing. you're being disingenuous and arguing in bad faith
I'm not familiar with Ukraine's constitution, but frankly I don't put much stock in the idea of an indelible constitution.
You'll usually have more luck convincing people of your perspective by not insulting them, btw.
i'm not trying to convince you. you're being disingenuous and arguing in bad faith.
Again, having a different perspective than you doesn't mean I am arguing in bad faith or being disingenuous. If you're not trying to have a conversation or convince me, then you're just being vitriolic for no reason, so I'm the one who is a troll? Come on man.
I don't think this is unreasonable. Citizens in occupied territory won't be able to vote and elections would just add pressure to a country that's fighting a major conflict on its own soil.
However I would expect Zelensky to hold free and fair elections as soon as the conflict ends, especially if he wants Ukraine to be part of the EU and eventually NATO
I don't think this is unreasonable
Not surprised that an .ee doesn't find "literal fascism" unreasonable.
I thought the entire reason that the white western world has been pouring untold amounts of money and resources into this small part of the world was to uphold and protect democracy? Funny how quickly that excuse just vaporizes the absolute second it's not convenient anymore.
Not surprised that a .hexbear.net is a dipshit
Dare I google into the unknown and ask the void what the hell is a hexbear?
@HuddaBudda it's a tankie instance. It's been around since ChapoTraphouse got banned from reddit. It has a culture of ... argumentative engagement. Several of the big instances have defederated it due to allegations of brigading etc.
I wonder how many people actually have a problem with this. Very few I'd suspect. Zelensky still seems popular within Ukraine, and I think most would agree that this isn't a good time for a change in leadership. Plus elections are expensive and nobody in the occupied space would be able to vote. Yeah I think this was the right call.