this post was submitted on 27 Jun 2024

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179

Helldivers 2 director weighs in on Elden Ring: Shadow of the Erdtree's difficulty: 'A game for everyone is a game for no one' (www.pcgamer.com)

submitted 4 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Among Us did pretty good as a game for nobody.

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[+] [email protected] -32 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Fuck people with disabilities and other problems. They don't deserve to have fun.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago

Then mod it and play it. If you think you don't deserve to have fun then do something about it.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Dark Souls was beaten with voice input alone. I saw someone working on doing that with Elden Ring just the other day. This isn't a disability issue. People just don't like difficult games, and that is very much a skill issue.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 4 months ago (6 children)

This is such a terrible take. You can have difficulty accessibility options in difficult games (eg. Celeste, Furi) and it doesnt make the game worse. This is just gatekeeping bs

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago (2 children)

It has difficulty options. They're just not in a menu. If you want to play on hard mode, use fist weapons and never summon. If you want easy mode, be a mage carrying a great shield and summon every fight.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 4 months ago

I feel like the main difference is that Elden Rings difficulty is innately linked to its game design. A similar game in a largely different genre is Underrail which is basically designed with CRPG fans who want to be kicked in the dick... repeatedly. Seriously Underrails combat is weirdly complex and frankly speaking even on easier difficulties is still a bitch.

I get that accessibility is a factor and all but theres only so much one can do thatll help without compromising the game design. I think the current situation is for the best, folks can mod the game to make it easier but there shouldnt be any official fuckery.

Also go play Underrail if you like Isometric CRPGs it hurts so good.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 4 months ago (3 children)

Honestly how is this gatekeeping? That word gets slinged around a lot and it using it here seems like it diminishes the real situations where the word is useful. So they're limiting access to the game from people who what? It's hard for everyone, they're not being selective about the difficulty somehow.

[+] [email protected] -7 points 4 months ago (15 children)

Honestly how is this gatekeeping?

"Gatekeeping: the activity of controlling, and usually limiting, general access to something."

The lack of difficulty sliders make the game inaccessible to people who have no ability or desire for the unforgiving experience, nor any ability/desire to "Git Gud Scrubs". It's intentionally left out to exclude those people. That makes it "gatekeeping" by the definition for the word.

This is substantiated by the fact that a mode to make the game easier and a mode to make the game harder are in the top 10 downloaded mods for Elden Ring. If you leave out the loaders and modutils, those same mods are top-5. This is basically unheard of in most games.

You can argue that you approve of this gatekeeping, but it's silly to die on the "it's not really gatekeeping" hill.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Soooo a game, which is not paid for nor developed by the community, and is rather purchased with the knowledge that it is a difficult game which will require ample skill to surpass its many challenges, should put in difficulty sliders despite them fundamentally going against the very nature of the game itself?

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[+] [email protected] -19 points 4 months ago (4 children)

they're gatekeeping the game story and experience, and ability to finish experiencing the game, from people who might be disabled or simply bad at games.

by making the game more accessible they would allow more people to enjoy the whole game

it's a pretty standard example of gatekeeping

[–] [email protected] 17 points 4 months ago (1 children)

The difficulty is the experience, home slice. People need to accept that some things just aren't for them.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

But the game that the other half is enjoying is the difficulty and the reward of experiencing the story street overcoming said difficulty

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[+] [email protected] -6 points 4 months ago (3 children)

Except some people have disabilities that prevent them from enjoying difficulty in a game. Some people just want the ambiance and story. Some people have reflexes that are not as sharp as they used to be. They should be able to also enjoy this art form as much as others

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Being bad at games isn't a disability.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 4 months ago (3 children)

Say that to the person that has lost an arm and is playing with a special controller

[–] [email protected] 7 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

There are plenty of videos showing people beating the game using one hand with disability controllers as well as entirely with voice controls or controllers that were specifically designed to be as stupid as possible (like bananas).

[–] [email protected] -2 points 4 months ago

But it involves much higher commitment than a regular run

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[–] [email protected] 34 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Eh I'm sorry but I still don't buy it. Making it a game about ambiance and story makes it a different game, doesn't it? Every game has a target audience right? Why does it seem like it's just games like this that get this sort of outrage thrown at it? FPS games have a similar level of entry yet no one is out there demanding they make Counter Strike less twitchy.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 4 months ago (3 children)

Making it a game about ambiance and story makes it a different game, doesn’t it?

Not really. The experience with the Easy Mode mod in place is pretty much the same. I saw more "You Died" screens on easymode than the typical player sees on regular mode. The only difference is that I didn't waste my money on Elden Ring by having to give up less than 10% into the game like I did on Bloodborne after 50 hours or so.

Some of us, especially older gamers, just don't have the reflexes for that type of game. Unfortunately for us, Fromsoft writes GREAT stories and Let'sPlays are still kinda boring.

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[+] [email protected] -7 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Counter strike is a multiplayer game, I'm talking about solo game (and even mp games can have difficulty accessibility options, like Tekken 8 does). About your target audience thing, I'd love to play dark souls and elden ring for the exploration, awesome music and ambiance but the difficulty and slow paced gameplay always put me off. Or to take the other example of Celeste, some people play it because of the difficulty and fun platforming, but I played it for the story and music and I loved it. Giving accessibility options will help people enjoy their game how they want with close to 0 additional development time cost.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 months ago (3 children)

I should say that I appreciate the candid discussion, nice to have a civilized chat on the internet. Also - in the end it wouldn't really bother me if Fromsoft did implement a simple difficulty slider. I think it'd be a bit more difficult than you are assuming however since it is also a multiplayer game. I guess they could limit the difficulty options to offline players only.

But as a very long time fan, I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that they have actually gone a long way to addressing the difficulty complaints of their games. ER is their most accessible game and there are a lot of in-game opportunities to customize the amount of difficulty one faces. I could go on and on about it but I'll leave it at that for now.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago

I think it’d be a bit more difficult than you are assuming however since it is also a multiplayer game. I guess they could limit the difficulty options to offline players only.

For online play, you can just match people who are using the same difficulty, and perhaps disable PVP entirely for Easy difficulty. For everything but PVP, it's not that big a deal. Seamless Co-Op Mod works with the Easy Mode mod. If modders can make a coherent experience, I'm sure From could. If they wanted to. Which they don't.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 4 months ago (2 children)

I believe a difficulty slider in a game specifically Elden Ring would destroy the game design. Biggest example is my own experience after walking out the starting area seeing and having that horse fella as the first thing I saw and tried to kill for longer than I would like to admit (before going to Google) if there was just a slider to slide down so I could kill that guy I would have never learned how to play the game and explore and kill bosses to level up. Not saying sliders don't work in ANY game but I just think it would ruin the experience of elden ring.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 months ago

I mean you could just not use the difficulty slider. I've never turned down the difficulty in any game even if I could have, but I don't begrudge people that do if they're struggling.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago

Oh yeah I 100% agree with you! I always try to make sure to point out all the other options available to people if they're frustrated with difficulty. I think people don't understand that a lot of the 'options' in Fromsoft games are not in menus - they're baked into the gameplay itself with in-world/lore reasons for doing them. Like how co-op uses a sign instead of a multiplayer interface 'room' like most other games.

It is the best thing about Fromsoft games IMO, that everything is a vessel to help tell the story and create more immersion, and a difficulty slider is game-y and creates less immersion (as well as what you said - would ruin the opportunities the difficulty affords in directing pleayers).

All that being said, if they added a slider that would only affect others, the only way it affects me is that I'd be bummed that they didn't get the great experience that I love about the game. I mean the other person mentioned Celeste which I also really enjoyed and I wasn't even aware that it had difficulty sliders. So that's how much they'd affect my enjoyment of the game.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I think ER had a great difficulty design since you could go to other areas to overlevel. But I haven't played it or the DLC so I can't really give a specific opinion on the implementation in fromsoft games, I just think that general anti-accessibility statement like the original quote are uninformed and ableist opinions. And you're welcome for the discussion!

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago

Yeah I see where you're coming from. I know as a creator it's really hard to strike a balance between achieving an artistic vision and separating their pride in that from real accessibiliy concerns.

And like I said in my other comment, I cherish the way Fromsoft uses difficulty to direct players and tell stories and I hesitate to want to do anything to water that down. Too many games take the route of making that game for everyone and Fromsoft games are for me that gaming oasis I can escape to.

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[–] [email protected] 39 points 4 months ago (5 children)

I just beat one of the bosses that I've heard the most complaints about, and I did it on the 5th try using a non-dlc weapon. I went in fully prepared to throw a controller, but it really wasn't that bad. So far I'm really enjoying the DLC, and it's because it has been difficult yet rewarding.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 4 months ago

It's mostly fine if you go for the skibidi tree fragments. There's a couple of bosses feel like they were designed out of spite though, specially the final one.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

They did roll out a nerf yesterday, but that's not to diminish your accomplishment!

[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 months ago

Yeah, I'm already past the curve so the nerf didn't do much to boost my power. I had already run some numbers when I was working out a build, and the difference in pre- and post- nerf was around 3%. The real secret to the DLC is to run around and explore. Getting fragments to boost yourself makes all of the fights much more tolerable. I was at 10 when I beat the aforementioned boss, and now I'm at 15, and it's getting pretty even with the base game. I think people just weren't expecting the fragments to be as important as they are.

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