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this post was submitted on 07 Jun 2024
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"while Ukraine still has levarage ... imperfect victory"
That's a view of the situation I can't understand. What is the leverage they currently hold? How would it be any kind of victory to settle now that they have lost so many of their cities and so much area?
Basically, the reality of the situation is that Ukraine ends up in a worse position with each and every day. If Ukraine took the peace deal back in 2022 it would've been immeasurably better than any deal it can hope for now. Western support peaked during the time of 2023 offensive, and it's been rapidly declining since. The west pouring in money and weapons into Ukraine has been the only reason it was able to keep fighting this long. As the available resources dry up, the situation will continue to decline at an accelerating pace.
We absolutely do, once Russia decides to pick up their toys and fuck off back to their side of the border. And that includes vacating occupied Crimea.
Since that's obviously not going to happen, it logically follows that what you're actually advocating for is to make sure that fighting continues until Ukraine is completely destroyed. I guess bloodthirsty psychopaths don't care how many people die and have their lives ruined.
Yeah, that's the problem with Putin and his crew of useful vatniks.
They'll put a gun to your head and steal your house then blame you for not negotiating it away for free.
Yeah that's totally what happened.
I'm glad you agree, and that any war started by a capitalist oligarchy, but especially a blatantly imperialist land grab, should be opposed with the full force available to the people, in solidarity with both the enslaved soldiers of the aggressor nation and the working class of the defender, who will, as always, bear the brunt of the horrors unleashed by oligarchal greed.
Weird how the chief of NATO disagrees with you , I guess you know something he doesn't:
The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.
So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders. He has got the exact opposite.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm
I'll never cease to be amazed how western propagandists managed to convince people that Russia is out on a mission of imperial conquests. Imagine believing that the largest country in the world, with a low aging population, is trading people for territory.
Do you understand that it's because of Russia that NATO is expanding? The countries neighboring Russia are afraid of what is just now happening in Ukraine?
For smaller countries such as in baltics joining a defense alliance is the only way. They've been illegally occupied by Russia before, they don't want that shit back.
I understand that this is the narrative NATO propagandists like to sell. The reality is that the governments are captured by US politically, and largely don't represent the interests of the people. This is why there's massive political unrest all across Europe now, including the Baltics.
You have no fucking idea what you're talking about, just parroting whatever the fuck you heard from radio sputnika.
Yes, USA has a ton of influence over Europe, and people are starting to understand it, but we wanted to join NATO DESPITE IT. There's really no other option.
The opinion in Finland and Sweden was for long time largely negative regarding joining NATO, but after the Russian invasion in Ukraine in 2022 people started demanding it.
I must've missed the referendums in Finland and Sweden where the opinion of the public was considered. In fact, I distinctly remember how Swedish government said this was too important to put up for the referendum. Thanks for making my point for me there.
The invading with tanks and waves of Nazi mercenaries and conscripts is what tends to give that impression.
That's very interesting. Turns out that it's people who stopped these people
- https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/neo-nazis-far-right-ukraine/
- https://jacobinmag.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea
- https://www.internationalmagz.com/articles/conversation-with-dmitri-kovalevich
from doing these things in Donbas
- https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf
- https://www.mintpressnews.com/volodymyr-zelensky-secret-police-hunted-down-opposition-anatoly-shariy/280200/
- https://twitter.com/paulius60/status/1611148483859255296
- https://yewtu.be/watch?v=bN68OfFKaWs
who are the actual nazis. You learn new things every day I guess.
I see, I see. The existence of a single Nazi in a country is justification for invasion, and it's absolutely impossible that nationalists will join the army of any truly just nation when it's being invaded.
Bad news for literally everyone, I guess we're just gonna do posadism now and trust in the Great Divider, the Bringer of Light to purge the filth that deserves death (and everyone else)
That's a weird way to say that literal fascists run the government and the military, and that they've been doing ethnic cleansing in eastern Ukraine, but I guess we've already established that you're an utterly dishonest person. Bye.
Projecting harder than an IMAX, fam
You sure are. I provided actual sources from mainstream western media that back everything I'm saying. You've just been regurgitating talking points you've memorized this whole time while ignoring the facts. You're not fooling anybody here fam.
Oh yeah, the anti-imperialism talking points handed out by fucking CNN lol, everyone knows they're hard-line antifa.
Hey, how many people have died in this invasion, and how many means of production has it seized for the proletariat?
And on a scale of Fascist Propaganda to Genuine Democracy, how would you rate the validity of the vote to confirm the Anschluss? Compared to Crimean annexation which also featured armed occupation military overseeing the open votes? And a 97% agreement, lmao, like 5% of the population won't vote no on anything just to be assholes.
You're literally justifying US imperialism and NATO expansion here.
Hey, how many people have died in this invasion, and how many means of production has it seized for the proletariat?
Weird straw man that has nothing to do with anything I said.
And on a scale of Fascist Propaganda to Genuine Democracy, how would you rate the validity of the vote to confirm the Anschluss? Compared to Crimean annexation which also featured armed occupation military overseeing the open votes? And a 97% agreement, lmao, like 5% of the population won’t vote no on anything just to be assholes.
Let's just look at a few facts about Crimea from a US government study. First thing to note is that it was never part of Ukraine proper. US government referred to it as the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. Second thing to note is that majority of the people in Crimea do not consider themselves Ukrainian, and the biggest demographic considers themselves Russian:
Maybe learn a bit of history of how USSR cobbled Ukraine together, and where its respective parts come from, and who lives there instead of making a clown of yourself here?
Regurgitating memorized talking points indeed, lol. I know you're too smart to honestly complain about NATO "expansionism" while also spouting irredentism.
I'm not spouting that at all, try engage with what's actually being said to you. Are you claiming Stoltenberg was lying when he said NATO expansionism was the reason, why do you think he would lie about that? Why was Russia fine with Ukraine doing its thing until the coup happened? At least try to come up with a narrative that make a bit of sense here.
I understand what you claim to believe.
What I don't understand is why you think it would matter even if it was completely true, given it would still be two fascist empires fighting over territory and crushing the people underfoot.
The only "right" side when capitalists fight is that of the defender, because even capitalists have the right to self defense.
It's not what I claim to believe it's what the head of NATO openly admits, and what western media has been reporting on in great detail. Meanwhile, what you're doing by equating Russia with fascism is a form of holocaust denial. Claiming that Ukraine is simply defender here requires ignoring all the context for the conflict and what the regime in Ukraine has been doing to people of Donbas. Seeing how comfortable you are with ethnic cleansing, seems to me that it's clear who the actual fascist is.
Lol, Holocaust denial.
Russia existing is not fascism. Russia invading other countries, spreading fascist propaganda in others, and being a capitalist nationalist dictatorship is the fascist part.
If they want to stop doing those things they'll stop being fascists. Or at least active ones.
When you definitely understand what fascism is.
The dragon fella is obviously a troll or a bot. In this whole discussion he failed to provide single source like you asked him to. Note that it should be relatively easy because he has the western propaganda on his side thanks to his point of view. Thanks for good sources on the donbas atrocities btw.
I find most of these discussions tend to follow the same script. People just regurgitate the same set of talking points over and over like a broken record. I think we see this a lot because it's a very effective tactic back on reddit where they end up piling on on anybody who says anything different.
This is such a bullshit survey, the biggest yes section is basically asking "is war bad and does it kill a lot of people". Of course we all want the war to end, and Putin can end it any time he wants
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