this post was submitted on 25 May 2024
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Science Memes

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[–] [email protected] 38 points 5 months ago (3 children)

The part which annoys me is about intentions.

Sure, lobby groups do pay off some people with a PhD to lie for them (Patrick Moore), that's not up for debate.

But to imply that this is the norm is just ignorant of how research is conducted.

Most scientists are either employed by a company, working towards a very specific, non contentious goal (like developing cold fusion), or are involved in research at a university, paid for in grants by their government to research whatever has been approved as worthy of investigation.

Nobody is pressuring these researchers to find evidence to support any particular agenda, the chips land where they fall. There's no fat cat smoking a cigar telling the climate science team at their local university that they need to find more evidence to crash the petrol stocks so they can sell more solar panels.

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[–] [email protected] 36 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I agree with

Science is not truth. Science is finding the truth.

That being said, you certainly can disagree with a scientific outcome. Good science relies on such types of discussions. If someone has a disagreement, then, by all means, please conduct an experiment to show that it's wrong, or express your opinion and be open to discussion.

[–] [email protected] 31 points 5 months ago (3 children)

I think it's more about the spirit and legitimacy of the disagreement. "I checked the numbers and stuff seems fishy" is very different than "Facebook told me essential oils cure cancer and doctors are lizards harvesting our brains". Discussion with people who are also seeking the truth helps. Denial of a point you don't like because Infowars says otherwise doesn't.

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[–] [email protected] 26 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

Sure, science is great and has lead to several great advancements. Science is done by people.

People will lie, cheat, and steal.

Big little lies: a compendium and simulation of p-hacking strategies

In an academic system that promotes a ‘publish or perish’ culture, researchers are incentivized to exploit degrees of freedom in their design, analysis and reporting practices to obtain publishable outcomes [1]. In many empirical research fields, the widespread use of such questionable research practices has damaged the credibility of research results [2–5].

Wiley's 'fake science' scandal is just the latest chapter in a broader crisis of trust universities must address

A recent Retraction Watch investigation allegedly identified more than 30 such editors, and kickbacks of as much as US$20,000. Academic publisher Elsevier has confirmed its editors are offered cash to accept manuscripts every single week. The British regulator said in January that one unnamed publisher "had to sack 300 editors for manipulative behaviour".

AI Chatbots Have Thoroughly Infiltrated Scientific Publishing

At least 60,000 papers—slightly more than 1 percent of all scientific articles published globally last year—may have used an LLM, according to Gray’s analysis, which was released on the preprint server arXiv.org and has yet to be peer-reviewed

It's important not deify science instead realize that it has issues. We should address those issues to help science become the ideals that we want believe science to have.

Edit: Missed a word

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[–] [email protected] 24 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I don't think a study like "Aspartame is actually super good for you and makes you run faster" funded by the "American Beverage Association" would ever make it to Theory status, and even concieving of such a silly notion reveals widespread misunderstanding of what a theory is.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago (1 children)

On a bit of a tangent, but it's all about positioning, you repeat and broadcast the positive outcomes that you can manufacture supporting data for as much as possible and don't engage with the negative ones. So, we don't even talk about cancer, we just show you how much weight you can lose, and weight loss is obviously good for you, something like this:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002916523175897

It's real easy to miss, but you'll find a 'Supported in part by the Nutrasweet Company' in the foot notes on one of the pages. The study is not specifically 'Aspartame is good for you and makes you run faster' but... it's pretty close and people are going to draw similar conclusions from it. They don't have to lie, you just have to make sure the 'right' data is prevalent enough that it buries the 'wrong' data.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago

Well that's fair, but science literate people would then direct you to the largest study ever performed on sweeteners and artificial sweeteners, the NutriNet-Santé population-based cohort study, found the highest risk from any artificial sweetener was Aspartame with a breast cancer hazard ratio of 1.15 which is to say a 15% increase correlation of breast cancer forming in consumers of aspartame over about a decade. The study didn't control for potential selection bias or other outside factors and the CI=95%, range from 1.03-1.22.

Technically speaking, Aspartame would still be preferred for health outcomes over an equivalent consumption of sugar in cases where calorie consumption is high, in the assumption that the Aspartame product in question doesn't contain calories.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (4 children)

I mean... Science does sometimes lie. Plenty of research papers out there with fudged results or questionable methodology. Also the fact that scientists don't always agree with each other on things.

You should always question authority. Just don't question the truth once it's actually been proven.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Science does sometimes lie.

Hm, imo, science doesn't lie — scientists lie. It need not even be a lie — it could simply be a misinterpretation of data. As long as proper science was done, and documented, reproduction of the experiment will get to the bottom of its accuracy.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Question the proven truth all the time,cas long as you're not fighting against observations and evidence

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Yes, science is about finding the truth, but we should relish the chance to challenge it. If it holds up, that only strengthens the argument for it. If it doesn’t, everyone learned something new.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Except whenever I see a non scientist challenge science, it's never with any rigor or substance. They'll literally be measuring angles off of an example figure posted in a news article as their argument. If you want to help push science forward, you can't just play gotcha on social media; you actually need to be able to do the math, and show your work.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago

You certainly aren't wrong.

[–] [email protected] 76 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (5 children)

As a young scientist who's yet to gain PhD:

Absolutely do challenge scientists, no matter your qualification. Sometimes (granted, that's rare) you might be right.

Just do it in a respectful way and make sure you check your arguments.

Also, while scientists are generally more educated overall, they can absolutely be foolish in what falls outside their scope. "I'm a scientist" is not a valid argument.

And yes, always check for a conflict of interest.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago

I am kind of a scientist myself.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 5 months ago (4 children)

There is a difference between informed skepticism and motivated skepticism or skepticism from ignorance. Informed skepticism is good. That's what solid science is based on. Being skeptical because the conclusions don't align with what you believe or because you don't actually understand what is going on is bad.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago (1 children)

That's something I wish more people would actually give some thought to. As someone from a group who gets discussed ad nauseum in the media it really is the case that a lot of the skeptical people that become our problem really don't have a personal data point for us. So many assumptions are made with things we theorize about but do not personally know. For us it can become plain very quickly when someone has never really interacted directly with us and are just operating on assumptions. I think the world is generally a better place when one is willing to be humble about what they choose to be skeptical about. Admitting to yourself and others that something is at present and maybe forever beyond your ken isn't a weakness. It's a strength.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago (2 children)

This sounds like what a lot of neurodivergent people like myself deal with. eg. ADHD, Autism etc. Lots of people talking on our behalf that aren't actually neurodivergent themselves.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Even motivated skepticism can be just fine with appropriate rigor and the clarity to see when evidence does or does not back up what you're saying. (Heliocentrism is a good example.)

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago

Of course - that's what I meant by "check your arguments". Thanks for the clarification with this point!

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 5 months ago (2 children)

My favorite example is Gregor Mendel. He wasn't a scientist. He was a monk with no degrees of any kind. But he did science—legendary science—which means he actually was a scientist.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

I'd say he was a scientist - just not part of academia :)

We have to separate science and academia, especially when we talk about the past.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 5 months ago (1 children)

To my understanding, he also very conveniently fudged a few of his experiments so that they would align with his other ones and ended up embellishing his final result, but also if he hadn’t done that he wouldn’t have discovered Mendelian genes? Not sure if that’s a win or a loss for science.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 months ago

damn never meet ur heroes

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago

They kind of backed up over their own message there.

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