this post was submitted on 30 Sep 2023
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Leftism

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The state is violent and community is violent and privacy is violent

Can anyone come up with an ideology that is not violent and can actually be implemented in the real world with real actors that aren't smelling roses and giving out hugs?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Personally, I think the only reason evil exists is because the world is unfair, some are advantageous and some are not. This causes people to refuse to "play" fairly which causes bad behaviors such as deception, exploitation, murder, etc. The only way to eliminate or reduce evil is to make the world fairer. One of the ways I can think of is for the fortunate to help the unfortunate.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I don't believe this to be true. Fairness only matters to people who value fairness. Many people value fairness, but it is irrational to believe that everyone values fairness. Some, not most or even many, don't care about fairness fundamentally. For these people, interesting fairness does nothing for them. These are the people we need to protect others from while also providing an environment that didn't necessarily mean removing or killing them.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

But what causes people to value fairness so little or so much? When I support equality, I don't just mean wealth or resources, but everything, and in this case it's intellect or knowledge. When people have different intellect or knowledge, there is bound to be misunderstanding or miscommunication or other issues. People who have low empathy or are ignorant or dumb to realize how fairness affects people can make things worse. I guess in this case we can make everyone equally smart so no one can deceive and no more misunderstanding. Can't make smart people dumber so I suggest making dumb people smarter which is to give education to those who need it.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You answered it yourself, but I will elaborate.

Humans are different between individuals. Some people are dumb. Some people are mean. Some people are evil. Fundamentally the paradox of tolerance applies to fairness as well.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well you wouldn't like this answer probably. I suggest to eliminate the differences but i think it's impossible. As long as there is positive, there is negative. To eliminate the negative is to eliminate the positive too, which is neutral and can make life very dull. So my other suggestion is quite radical which is to eliminate life itself. Or just make life or the world as fair as possible even if it's impossible.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ah, good old fashioned Nihilism. Another thing that I think is silly.

It is irrelevant what you think personally. Other people don't necessarily think those things and assuming that they will or do abide by your positions without an incentive is folly.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I'm simply just providing my solutions or opinions. Better than nothing i guess, unless you have a better plan.

Of course, it's impossible to please everyone. Can't take some without losing some. So maybe just brute force it? Idk.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So your suggestion is to force people to agree with you and to submit to your interpretation of fairness... with violence...

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well the force part is not about equality, but to end all life.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

So your solution is to kill everyone because some people disagree with you?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Wdym people disagree with me? I believe inequality is what causes evil to exist in this world, and to make everything equal might be impossible, or even if it is, life will be extremely boring It might be impossible to achieve happiness, because everything is the same. A world without pain or suffering but also devoid of happiness. I suggest to eliminate every life to eliminate suffering.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't even know where to go from here... you are proposing to exterminate all human life because some things are unfair as you see it and you think that forcing, with violence, your vision of fairness will cause the world to be boring... so nobody deserves to live.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Firstly, I propose to exterminate every life, not just humans. We as humans didn't even consider other species just because we're superior, or lucky in evolution i guess. Secondly, unfairness is a fact, not simply because the way i see it. You can't see the world from your perspective only. Think about the unfortunate people who live in poverty or starvation or in other unfortunate situations, especially those who live in the third world country. You may think that those people deserve to be put in such situations because they choose to be in such situations, but I don't believe in free will. Do you even wonder why people make certain choices and not the other choices? Everyone is unique for a reason. And I didn't say nobody deserves to live, more like nobody deserves to suffer unfairly. And I'm suggesting to end life, not forcing it. Who knows, maybe life will end itself, from climate change or nuclear war or when the sun or every star in the universe dies. Some people and even other animals killed themselves for whatever reason.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm sorry, but there is almost nothing of value in this diatribe and I see no value in continuing to talk about any of these... points.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Can't say I respect your opinion, but your life, your choice i guess. I'm simply trying to disprove your claims, can't say what I comment is 100% true, just simply my opinions. I understand if some people choose to be ignorant. Ignorance is a bliss after all.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Wait... you are trying to disprove my claim that there would be people with antisocial traits even in a society that is based on fairness? That is what you are trying to do? Holy hell...

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I'm sorry. I don't really understand what you're trying to say. Which claim are you talking about previously? And I don't know what you mean by what I'm trying to do. All I was doing is simply providing my opinions or solutions to remove or reduce evil in this world. Assuming full equality has been achieved, then there should be no reason for anyone to have antisocial behavior.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You... honestly don't understand humans very well do you.

Let's just use the extreme case; are you familiar with mental disorders?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I think we're getting sidetracked here. I am familiar with some of them, or if I don't, I can just google or use AI. Still, you haven't answer my previous question.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If you think this is getting sidetracked...

I'm sorry, but conversation with you is incredibly difficult. I can't tell if you have a coherent position or capable of creating a cogent argument... I'm not sure you understand your own position well enough to convey it to another much less consider the counter position I presented.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I'm sorry, I'm going to offend you for personal reasons. It's possible that you're denying your intellectual incapability due to your ego by saying that I'm unable to converse in a way that you would understand instead of taking time to understand yourself. It's not like I'm using fancy words unlike you. Not to mention that you're taking my comments way out of context most of the time, and when I try to disprove your claims, you don't even try to challenge me back or argue reasonably and instead create excuses such as "my points are meaningless" or "I'm unable to converse properly". And you're being hypocritical by saying my comments are "diatribe". I tried to make most of my comments except this one as neutral as possible and not mention anyone specifically, and you dare to say my comments are "diatribe"? The way I see it, you're the one that "attack" me first. Your comments really show your insecurity towards your intellect and instead of arguing or debating properly, you take my comments out of context and create excuses to avoid debating because I assume you can't create reasonable arguments.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Of course, still can't create any meaningful argument. Let's not waste anymore of our time and end this conversation here.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

I don't know what to say anymore except, very mature dude. I'll just say this, learn to control your ego and accept that there will always be a bigger fish.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The argument presented here is based on complete ignorance of the history of the human race.

Reason #1

The concept of property ownership is not a product of capitalism. This idea is literally as old as the oldest known civilization to keep written records, Mesopotamia.

Concern with property, its preservation, and its use shaped not only the Mesopotamian legal tradition but also economic and social practice, notably the ability to sell and to buy land and to transfer property through marriage and inheritance.

In Mesopotamian culture, property was owned by the state, by the temple, and by private families. Records show a distinction between movable property (material goods) and immovable property (land), and the selling, trading, repossessing, inheriting and transfer of all types of property.

Here is an example of a cuneiform tablet recording an agreement about the division of property.

There is even an equivalent of eminent domain:

When Hammurabi asked, “When is a permanent property ever taken away?” he was referring to the established customary legal principle that land was the permanent property of a family.

Hammurabi was not a capitalist. Babylon was not a capitalist nation.

Capitalism did not "invent legal privileges around property".

Reason #2

Conquest of territory happened long before capitalism ever existed. Colonialism was hardly a new concept.

Genghis Khan was not a capitalist. Alexander the Great was not a capitalist. Julius Caesar was not a capitalist. Napoleon Bonaparte was not a capitalist.

If you require citations for this part of my argument, I suggest you find a basic text on world history at your local library.

Conclusion

I'm not going to address the other "reasons" as they are faulty conclusions drawn from the previously addressed faulty premises.

I am not arguing that these things are right and good. I am arguing that linking them specifically to capitalism represents a desperately uneducated understanding of human society and history. This is such a bad take, it reeks of teenage anarchist and "money is the root of all evil" oversimplification.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's a bit disingenuous arguing that capitalism is somehow a new concept, and colonialism isn't.

I mean the terms capitalism and colonialism are both coined way after the practice of those systems. I think you could argue that capitalism even entered the human world before even currency was a thing.

Colonialism is the same, as you seem to intuit, considering other people and subduing them didn't need a philosophical framework in order for it to be enacted.

In most civilizations wealth tends to accumulate at the top of the societal pyramid, which is capitalism. The pharaohs and sumerian kings alike are capitalists. They profit of the labour of others.

There's a reason you're unwilling to entertain other arguments, because you're moving the goalposts and are afraid they will fall off the field.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

This is such a weird take... how far removed from reality are you to actually believe that authoritarian feudalism is a form of capitalism?

Wealth accumulation is not capitalism. Capitalism enables wealth accumulation, but the opposite isn't true in the slightest.

All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

Ok I'll bite. God help me.

My employer bills me out for $400/hr and I make about $100/hr. I wouldn't be able to make that much on my own because I don't have the resources and infrastructure my employer has: admin, IT, expertise, manpower, marketing, legal, and so on. I have zero interest in being self employed. So this is a good arrangement for me.

My clients are happy paying those prices because we provide good service at competitive rates.

My employer is happy because they usually net about 30% profit margin so the partners walk away with $120/hr after paying me and other overhead.

It's the very definition of capitalism doing exactly what it is supposed to do: providing valuable goods and services to people who want to buy it from people who want to sell it, and everyone walks away happy from the transaction.

I fail to see how this is a violent and exploitative war on civilization itself. Fuck everything about this comic. Why is it even on my feed? Gah.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm happy for you, I really am! It sounds like you have a very good situation, but it's important to remember that if the company is making profit, they are still taking value of your labor without doing the bulk of the work. Capitalism is designed to do exactly one thing, and that is to maintain the power of the wealthy elite. Any benefits are coincidental.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

My example shows all three parties benefitting from the arrangement. Everyone would lose if I, the worker, quit. It's not exploitation at all. I willingly enter into this agreement because I literally can't do this on my own. So I benefit from company resources. My clients can't be serviced by a small one man show so they choose a bigger company too. The firm owners make the most because it's their company and none of this would be happening without them. It's not exploitation and it's not parasitic, it's symbiotic. We've got loads of issues with legislation and enforcement, minimum wage should be like $20-30, corporate governance needs to address all stakeholders and not just shareholders, and so on. But that won't be resolved by swapping capitalism for any other -ism. It's overly simplistic to think one ism is the only problem and another ism is the only solution.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Upvoting for good faith engagement, even if a little frustrated. I encourage other leftists here to do the same.

The situation you describe is capitalism working smoothly. Marx himself spoke highly of aspects of capitalism many times. The problem comes when your company's owner, who has the power to abuse that ownership, does.

By analogy, monarchies are bad, even if your king is good. You can have a fair, just, wise philosopher king. It sounds like you're lucky in having a good job with a reasonable owner, but your owner could sell to a private equity company tomorrow, who will lay you off, outsource your job to lower costs, bill out the same rate even when lowering the quality, and pocket the difference. They'll do this for a few years until the brand's value has been mined, then they'll scrap your company and sell it for parts.

Socialists like myself argue that because the system can be abused, it inevitably wil be abused. It's a structural argument, not an argument about each specific case. We argue that democratic control of our jobs is a good thing, in the same way that we got rid of kings to replace them with democratic control is a good thing, because we think that system is more just and fair.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

This might be the first discussion I've had on Lenny in good faith as you say, so thank you for that.

My position summarized is that we definitely have massive issues with inequality, injustice, lack of rights, etc. But these are issues of legislation, corrupt government and leadership, enforcement, corporate governance, media disinformation, and so on. As you said any system can and will be abused. Swapping capitalism for any other -ism won't change anything. (What would that even look like?)

Some of my meandering thoughts for potential solutions include controlling media disinformation, campaign finance reform, term/age limits, and ranked voting. It would be great to somehow change corporate governance to require leadership to prioritize stakeholders and not just shareholders, but I don't really know how to do this. Maybe a requirement that all public companies be owned at least maybe 10% by non-officer employees, enough to get a seat on the board of directors.

It's extremely complicated and there's no clear solution. I'm not saying capitalism is perfect, I'm saying it's overall ok and it's very childishly naive to make a shitty comic about swapping it for another -ism to solve all of our problems. I really don't want to argue about it though or get into a flame war, I just can't handle the vitriol on this forum.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Back when I did service work I made about $30/hr and was billed out at $60/hr. Seems outrageous right? Until you factor in worker's comp, other insurance, admin, etc. They needed to bill at $45/hr to just break even, and you need to charge more than that to cover other unexpected costs, downtime, buy new equipment, building maintenance, etc.

The idea that capitalism "steals" the surplus value of labour can be true sure, but it's often simplified and exaggerated so much like in this meme that it's hard to take seriously. It's probably hard to quantify depending on the industry too as there are different expenses and added value by the employer (I bet Wal-Mart is an order of magnitude worse than your local plumbing company for e.g.) If I were to just hire myself out at the exact same rate my employer did but covered all the additional costs and value they added I wouldn't actually be ahead anything at all, and I'd have to work even more just to end up in the same place in the end, so at least in that case the system benefited us both.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

Yes, precisely this.

Workers are absolutely exploited by plenty of shitty companies. But that's not caused by capitalism, nor is it solved by any other -ism. The causes are complex and the solutions are even moreso, if there even are solutions at all. To sit here bitching about it in the form of a stupid anti capitalism comic is just childishly naive.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Now do someone making $7.25 an hour.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Ok, I make 7.25 an hour and my employer bill me out at $25/hr. My employer walks away with 30% or about $7.50, etc etc. The sample numbers are meaningless.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The material realities of someone making 7.25 (which I will concede is a little bit of a strawman, most people make more but not much) is very different than someone making 100/hr. The petit bourgeois exist for a reason. They're still exploited but only to a point. They're "commoners" that benefit from the status quo and wish to uphold it. They have it good enough and can relate to the disadvantaged people's plight insofar as it allows them to dismiss their criticisms as being lazy, not working hard enough, bootstraps, yada yada. They're a foil and a buffer between the proletariat and the bourgeoise. You can point to them to say the exact things you're saying right now

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

So raise minimum wage to $20-30/hr. You don't need to toss capitalism out the window to do that. It's overly simplistic to blame these problems on one ism and naive at best to think these problems will go away for swapping it with another ism.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So are your bullshit numbers

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'm done with you. Come back if you have something constructive to add to the conversation.