Their inability to modernize the grid is not solar's problem.
this post was submitted on 22 Apr 2024
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Clearly under a capitalist vision “””smart”””appliances like your dish washer could be set to run at some point in the next X hours, and they would optimally wait until there was a local excess of solar energy in the grid to run. What would make the device “smart” is just that your device would be watching the price of electricity and have some basic rules of how long to wait before needing to run no matter what (you need your clothes clean by tomorrow).
I don’t know if that is the future I am most confident in being the best, but clearly this is VERY possible with current technology it just takes the structuring of appliance companies and software in a way that makes this not impossible for dizzyingly insane reasons.
Also, here’s an idea, use the spare electricity to charge public bicycles and put a free amount of power into them so the next random person who uses them gets a subsidized ride? Like why not have some kind of publicly owned power bank in the vicinity of surplus alternative energy sources that is known to occasionally have a lot of very cheap power that could be used to power cars, power banks or other large batteries?
Surely people are doing this right???? Right??
This is exactly what Octopus Energy are doing in the UK. You tell them when you need your car charged by and they schedule it to happen (usually overnight) so that it's done by then.
Rather than laying 30p/kwh you pay 7p/kwh.
You can of course tell it to just charge, and pay the usual rate.
Oh no, the sun is free power? What ever will we do! We must protect the profits of our monopolies!!!
Probably should read the article. Nah. Fuck that. Much better to just express outraged, regardless if it makes sense.
I don't make sense, I make dollars! To be fair, negative prices and an over abundance of solar energy are standard complaints of conservatives.
they are right though. if you look into this at all, you will quickly find that negative prices are not a problem because of profits, but because non-renewable energy sources start to undergo damage when the power they create is unused due to an overfilled power grid. negative prices exist because they are willing to pay folks to use the power that is threatening infrastructure.
as the article outlines, the solution is storage, but storage capacity has not yet caught up to solar capacity.
believe me, i too am highly critical of capitalism. but for once, this isn’t an instance of that. and by failing to read and understand the article you have entered this thread in pretty bad faith, more or less spreading misinformation because it’s what you assume to be true.
Okay, I went and read it because I have more time today and excess electricity causing physical damage is a compelling narrative. But this article doesn't support that. It's just plant operators having to pay for people to take their electricity because their plant is obsolete technology and can't idle. I did check a few other articles too. It seems the damage is financial and a problem because we've turned a public good into a for profit capitalist system.
The solution is many things but also to just have modern natural gas plants that are more than capable of flexible output. Of course the profit motive means updates like that only come when forced and boards like the CPUC have been hopelessly captured for my entire lifetime. So instead they shit on their consumers.
Yep, this is sadly a physical problem in the essence, not created virtually by capitalist economy. The negative price is just how the capitalist economy reacts at it.
It is though. The entire reason we're still using obsolete inflexible technology is capitalism. Might not be able to buy that 4th yacht if we pay to upgrade our LNG plant.
glad mine was a helpful comment and thanks for your further comment adding detail :) was getting down over all the misunderstanding going on in the comments. cheers!
Selling the power to other regions is alright, but what I'd really like to see is pumped storage. Even just two grey water reservoirs- massive, probably underground. "Spend" all that free electricity during the solar day. Release that energy as hydropower during the mornings and evenings to reduce surge pricing and demand on the grid. Sell additional power as needed, but don't let solar go to waste.
Batteries are...okay... but lithium ion cells will last 10 or 15 years before needing to be replaced, which seems wasteful when we have perfectly reusable options like pumped storage, which involves a few pumps, a hydroelectric turbine, and two cement or dirt reservoirs, one higher than the other.
I'm sure whatever we do, it will fix itself in time. I just hope CA doesn't permanently cut incentives over this "problem", haha.
A few pumps, a hydroelectric turbine, and two reservoirs 30 to 530 times larger than an equivalent lithium ion battery storage site, according to the energy densities listed here: https://cleanenergywiki.org/index.php?title=Storage_Basics
article:
“california is having this problem because solar grew faster than we expected but we are building storage systems to hold power for later.”
commenters who didn’t read the article:
“this is so stupid why don’t they just build storage systems to hold power for later 😡😡😡”
You know it may speak poorly on the commentors, but you have to some faith in humanity restored when the common sense solution is what is already in the works, right?
absolutely a fair point.
my only fear is that maybe ppl may come away from this post with some kind of disdain for california, like they are “doing it wrong” or something just because they are encountering growing pains. unsure how big of a problem that is so i’m not going too hard on commenters.
just wish more people read stuff before chucking their opinions in the ring.
No disagreements. People trivializing hard and complex problems doesn't help us fix them.
Why would we read an article when the headline is so much shorter?
California could provide credits for people to install in-home batteries. That could level out the wild swings in supply and demand, while letting people enjoy continuous, cheap power.
Add a car charger transformer and a lot of EV demand on the grid can be handled by in-home batteries.
I've got a pretty easy fix, just pass those negative rates on to the consumer. I'd be happy to teach my car to charge when the price goes negative, but noooo, utilities are the ones double dipping on negative power rates.
Allow the free market to behave like it's supposed to when it benefits the little guys? You must be joking, we don't do that here.
In Finland that's what we do (if you have a 'market priced' contract). I have my heating set up so that it will 'overheat' my apartment when power is very cheap, effectively using the interior space as a rudimentary thermal battery.
There was an incident a few months ago, that caused power price to became absurdly negative, someone made a wrong bid and people used 90M€ worth of power in a few hours as a result.
People don't seem to have read the article or seem to understand anything at all.
“These are not insurmountable challenges,” said Michelle Davis, head of global solar at the energy research and consulting firm Wood Mackenzie Power and Renewables. “But they are challenges that a lot of grid operators have never had to deal with.”
And
Solar can still grow in California. In the summer, when high air conditioning use strains the grid, solar can be useful even in the middle of the day. Denholm says that as solar continues to drop in price, installing solar that is curtailed regularly can still be cost-effective. “Throwing away some amount of renewable energy can absolutely make economic sense,” he said.
People want their cake and to eat it too. The grid is old as fuck and is build for a easy system where plants can reliably come online and run all day. They have inertia ans can balance the grid. The value of a traditional plant is higher than that of a solar plant. Solar absolutely has additional costs to the grid and that shouldn't be ignored. So the only way for solar to compete is to be cheaper, which it is. But those added costs need to be recouped. That's all that the article is saying.
This about of solar is absoultely causing the grid problems that no grid in the world has ever seen before solar became a thing. But it can be fixed, it just takes investment.
If only we hadn't spent the past four thousand years or so storing electricity chemically and had focused on what to do about sun no shine at night!!!! we could have cheap virtually limitless power available. Oh, well, drill up some more dead dino goo!
texas needed power and im sure they are connected to the national grid........wait
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