A place to ask questions of Lemmygrad's best and brightest
Just going to expand on my hostility towards @[email protected] , what I get from his two comments (https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/4071539 and https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/4071810) is that in China, if you have any form of disability or special needs, you're out of luck, it's a cutthroat capitalist society y'all, who gives a damn about the losers!
To the moderators, I suggest adding rules for answering questions, in the spirit of "no investigation, no right to speak".
So, as I (and probably the other mods and admins) have a job I am not able to check all of the sources of the both of you, so I cannot decide which one is correct and which one isn't.
That being said, instead of a normal, healthy discussion this seemed to have turned into a shit throwing competition between the two of you. Please start having a discussion in good faith or we have to shut it down entirely.
“No investigation no right to speak”? Thank you for completely ignoring my comment to your earlier accusation of being a liar that I responded to by using only Chinese sources. Meanwhile you have given exactly zero sources for your claims and then grandstand to try and make it a moral argument because you had your feelings hurt that you can’t call me a liar to my face.
Why did you avoid linking that comment I wonder? Or any of the other ones? Did they not fit your narrative?
Thank you for also for twisting my words.
No where did I say that China was a cutthroat capitalist society where neurodivergent people were losers.
Do you think China is some utopian paradise with absolutely no problems whatsoever where they are still striving for improvement? The original poster asked a question in good faith and I responded with a sourced claim, but also with hope of the situation improving.
Or do you want to call me a liar to my face again? Your own bio states that you “deal with misinformation by using offices Chinese sources”. Well? Where are your sources? Or is Tsinghua University not reputable enough for you?
The original poster asked a question in good faith and I responded with a sourced claim
Where was this "sourced claim" before I jumped in and asked?
Do you think China is some utopian paradise with absolutely no problems whatsoever where they are still striving for improvement?
From my comment in another post (https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/3895578):
China is not a utopia, I’m glad that comrades here are defensive of China, but I suggest that we should avoid falling into the ideological warfare trap when it comes to discussing bad news in China. There’s no shame in admitting deficiencies where they are warranted, and of course feel free to refute baseless claims and misinformation.
As for your Tsinghua University link (https://www.tsjc.tsinghua.edu.cn/en/info/1148/1139.htm), the articles linked are all from 2013, I suppose the situation from 11 years ago is still valid today. But this isn't a problem because I'm sure you can find more recent sources for the poor situation regarding neurodivergent people in China. Also not to discriminate the author's background but:
Nicholas Compton, second year student of Global Business Journalism Program at our school. Before coming to Tsinghua University, he was a special education teacher in the U.S., specializing in autism education
No where did I say that China was a cutthroat capitalist society where neurodivergent people were losers.
No, I was mentioning what I thought after reading your two comments:
Socially and culturally, children and by extension adults with any form of special needs are seen as broken, weak, or sick. Job discrimination is rife, schools and colleges will discriminate heavily, and there are essentially no social services. Legal protections are nonexistent, or paltry at best, and rarely enforced.
and from the same cutthroat individualistic societal mindset that has allowed China to propel itself to absurd heights in such a short timeframe.
I linked all the comments you made at the time I commented.
My bad, I didn’t notice the time stamp.
You still avoided the question entirely.
Well, am I a liar who’s making everything I claimed? Say it to my face.
Sorry sire, I'm not an expert on every topic and in this instance I've decided not to spend time researching this topic when you have not even responded to my last Fact Check inquiry (https://lemmygrad.ml/post/3076871).
I've arbitrarily decided that you are a bad faith actor on China-related issues and will not engage with you further.
Coward.
It’s easy to make accusations and then run away, huh?
I have arbitrarily decided that you were hoping to “catch me in a lie”, and when your plan blew up in your face, you whined and pivoted to making a moral argument about the other side arguing in bad faith, despite being the one arguing in bad faith.
No investigation, no right to speak. Isn’t that what too wanted the mods to enforce?
Piss off.
I know too much the pains of pissing in the wind and being ignored for it because people liked what the guy was saying. Like a week ago a literal open pedophile was dropping talking points and I got downvoted for shit for saying we shouldn't be allowing pedo apologia, meanwhile everyone was agreeing with the pedo and when I looked into them their profile was full of anime shit. I was so mad I literally quit for a few days.
Was this on lemmygrad or lemmy.ml?
It was worldnews on ml if i'm not mistaken. I don't think that sort of thing would fly at all on grad. Wouldn't hold it against the admins though since none were active at the time and the mods were doing their job removing rule-breaking content in the thread, but what I do hold against is the community for upvoting that kind of shit.
I brought it up because it's a good anecdote of times where the community believes one guy without evidence but not the other guy without evidence solely because they already agree with the other guy.
Very poorly.
Socially and culturally, children and by extension adults with any form of special needs are seen as broken, weak, or sick. Job discrimination is rife, schools and colleges will discriminate heavily, and there are essentially no social services.
Medically pediatric autism care is all but nonexistent and there is very little support. It is virtually impossible to receive a diagnosis for autism or ADHD, and even if you somehow do, good luck getting much help or medication.
Educationally there is no support. Curriculum is the same for everyone at every level with no support or accommodations, so autistic children are often washed out or treated as failures. You can easily find Chinese sources where Chinese teachers talk about how special needs children are often physically and mentally abused by their teachers and peers, to the point of being beaten because they make teachers look bad during exams.
On a positive note, there have been pushes for autism awareness in major cities, and the medical community is slowly changing to accept and help neurodivergent people. It’s progress, but excruciatingly slow. It is still decades behind the west in this regard, one can only hope that progress will pick up soon.
I don't claim to have absolute perfect knowledge, and I sense that there is alot of truth in what you are saying, but from my own limited experiences and readings, all of that doesn't seem to be nearly as common in China as it was years ago, and the situation has gotten much better over the past few years. I don't want to and can't call you a liar, and so far I have no reason not to trust you. I don't live in China but I hope to move there eventually, and almost everything I've read is the opposite of what you are saying.
From my own research, the amount of support, whether by the state, social services, programs, and training has increased dramatically the past several years, and businesses have now become much more accommodating, and it's basically almost every type of occupation that supports neurodivergent people in one way or another. Though that might be geared more towards adults, the institutional support for teenagers and children is drastically increasing as well.
I think that the abuse faced by autistic students has more to do with workplace culture and Chinese culture in general, rather than ableist abuse. But regardless, it's still disgusting and wrong and still is part of ableism. I find it hard to believe that a teacher would abuse their students for whatever reason, especially learning difficulties, but I know that unfortunately it happens.
I'm on the spectrum, and I've read experiences from numerous autistic people in China that the country as a whole is surprisingly accommodating now, and that China's mix of culture and socialist workplace organization makes things surprisingly easy for autistic people to find and keep jobs and function socially in daily life, and the people are very nice.
Things have absolutely improved in recent years and that’s the one bright spot with all this, I will say. But it’s still hardly to a good level. I’m actually really curious about where you read those things about the increases in state support, because while that’s amazing to hear what I found mentioned a lot of the opposite. For example, while state support for pushing childhood diagnosis is increasing, there is a painful shortage of trained psychiatric professionals able to work in the field and provide adequate care for autistic children. Something made worse by social stigmas and cultural associations.
The part about workplace and school culture is pretty exact sadly. The abuse isn’t purposeful, but it disproportionately affects and discriminates against neurodivergent children and adults. For example the beatings aren’t because teachers want to see an autistic student suffer, but because it’s “good” corporal punishment because neurodivergent students can’t behave, and their poor performance and exam scores reflect negatively on their career. So they attempt to “motivate” their neurodivergent student in increasingly more abusive ways.
It is definitely better then things were 20 years ago, but there is still a long ways to go. I’m happy to hear things are on track to get better, and I can’t wait for a brighter future for the neurodivergent community in China : )
There was a recent article on Xinhua that really touched me. I always caution to not believe everything I read, especially not automatically or completely, and I hate labeling something as "propaganda" but regardless, here is one:
https://english.news.cn/20240402/3ed22a8b34a044d3af45a87c7034bb93/c.html
And a new one I just now saw:
https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202404/16/WS661daa60a31082fc043c219e_1.html
I think it'd be cool if and when in the future, things hopefully improve and we could meet up. Could you put a good word in for me with Xi Jinping? Gotta get my Xibucks lol
So I assume you've dealt with people with autism in China, to be able to give such a response?
Educationally there is no support. Curriculum is the same for everyone at every level with no support or accommodations, so autistic children are often washed out or treated as failures.
Such absolutist phrasing with no regard for the existence of special education schools or programs.
I've had my eyes on you for a while now, I'm beginning to believe that you're just pulling shit out of your ass on multiple occasions, prove me wrong.
Right away sire, let me bring it to you all on a sliver plater. You are the arbiter of truth after all, despite pulling random points out of their own ass despite being blatantly wrong.
Maybe do a single second of research before running and accusing people? I did the reading because I have autistic family members that I was considering moving to China with. Have you dealt with autistic people in China?
Special education schools in China are tailored towards the blind and deaf. There are extremely few with the resources to adequately assist nuerodivergent children.
Special education schools are mainly tailored toward students with physical disabilities rather than those with cognitive and neurological conditions. Children with autism still face frequent rejections from both public and special education schools.
https://link.springer.com/referencework/10.1007/978-1-4614-6435-8
Due to the imitations of special education schools in China for autistic students, and the difficulty of autistic children integrating into public schools, many families seek autism intervention from private organizations. Because these treatments are not state-run, they cost substantial amount of money. Around 30% of parents reported that they cannot sustain this amounted of financial burden for a prolonged period.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6345370/
So yes, programs exist, but they cost exorbitant amounts of money. Do you think the average Chinese family can afford paying $1,500 a month for a child to attend these private programs? I’d say it’s very absolutist except for the very wealthy.
“I’ve had my eyes on you”. Fuck off
Damn, is it really that much worse in China? As someone living in America, many of the things you say about how China treats autists seem to ring true here as well. I'd like to think that I would be able to blend in better as a high-functioning autist, plus I won't be discriminated for my race anymore if I go back to China.
TBH, these issues speak of far wider reaching issues than just poor special needs/mental health support, if true.
It’s originates partly from historic traditional Chinese beliefs, and from the same cutthroat individualistic mentality that has allowed China to propel itself to absurd heights in such a short timeframe.
In a society where only the best of the best are worthy and can succeed, those deemed to be intrinsically “damaged goods” will simply be tossed to the wayside, as assisting, supporting, or accommodating them is a waste of time and resources that can be better allocated elsewhere. It’s the mentality of, “Why would we bother spending limited resources on a person who is already a failure and broken, when we can use that to help other children who are far more likely to succeed.”
Further, in a lot of societies, not just China, mental illness is seen as a weakness that is not tolerated. This is a worldwide problem that has only recently begun to change.
I get where it comes from (I'm ethnic Chinese, though my family is from Singapore). Hell, my own family had/has a lot of serious issues (fear/stigma/intolerance/disbelief) around mental health/neurodivergence/etc... I used to have a lot of serious issues around such things myself- I still struggle with it though I know better. Let's just say that with my own family history, my own personal experiences, my siblings' experiences, etc- between mental health, other circumstances, and Catholicism, I'm aware how bad it gets.
But the stigma is one thing (something I think is also pretty universal and unfortunately, a natural tendency of most societies- the west has only gotten ahead in this regard due to having the money and comfort for it in the past few generations to do so). Beatings (from teachers and peers) and discrimination is another thing altogether, as is the notion of tossing the "failure/broken" people away, at least the way you make it sound. And I get where these things are coming from as well, for instance (while I wasn't raised in Singapore) corporal punishment is a thing in Singaporean schools still to my understanding (beatings on the other hand? For poor exam results, not misbehavior?).
Perhaps I'm overthinking things. In some ways, minus the medication and diagnosis bits, all the same could probably be claimed with some considerable degree of truth, here in the west (and for many people, myself and my siblings included, they'll fall through the cracks anyways due to "parents' rights" and other nonsense). It also reminds me of the particular vulnerability of kids once again, which I didn't quite have in mind- I have extensive bad experiences myself but almost a decade into adulthood (27) maybe it's become easy to forget just how hopeless and helpless the experience universally is (whether it's perceived as such) to be a kid.
I remember reading about how Cuba is leading the way with research and a modern understanding of ASD. This was about a year ago, I don't remember much specific.
Cuba is incredibly revolutionary in the field of mental health. By extension, social acceptance and support is also far beyond the west.