The problem with Nuclear Power is that people with strong opinions about it either way are some of the most annoying you'll ever see.
this post was submitted on 21 Mar 2024
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Where are these fast Reactors?
If nuclear stops getting outstripped by renewables on cost I might be more interested in it.
Only when you don't include grid storage
Yeah that is problem. It did just make me think though: I read recently about a UK project to build a solar farm in the Moroccan desert the size of greater London and lay undersea cables all the way back to southwest England. They claim it will be half the cost of the new Hinkley C reactor, which is just up the road and that includes building from scratch the ship to lay the cables. Now, instead of having this solar farm to the south, in a similar timezone, what if it could be to the east or west? There is already an international grid in this part of the world, so perhaps if it was extended, there could be renewable energy coming in from wherever, whenever it was being produced. The sun is usually out and the wind blowing somewhere. That would reduce the burden of storage. It would also require a high level of cooperation and trust, which has its pros and cons.
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Or just bury it miles underground in the desert, but for some fucking reason a state is as likely to store it upstream in a concrete shack as they are to ship it to the mojave where the pit is literally already dug out and designated.
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Fossil fuels produce terrible waste we store in the air that we breathe.
Yes, but when things go wrong, the boom is relatively small and contained.
We can't run a regular coal or natural gas power plant here without fucking it up and getting people killed. Despite the safety of modern plant designs, I do NOT trust the people in charge here with fissile material.
You know, the beautiful thing about being a society is we can all just agree to regulate them. I think that's called a government.
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Terrible waste that we store in our lungs
Ralph Nader interview goes into details on nuclear power
KPFA - The Ralph Nader Radio Hour: America, Stop With the Nuclear Power. It’s Not Going to Happen.
Episode webpage: https://kpfa.org/program/the-ralph-nader-radio-hour/
Media file: https://archives.kpfa.org/data/20240318-Mon1100.mp3
Nuclear power is still the most expensive way to produce electricity by a large margin.
It is not.
And there is no large margin.
Referencing several sources that consider a vast array of power generation technologies, from offshore wind to biomass, terrestrial wind, solar, gas, coal and nuclear, and nuclear energy has high start up costs and it's also not the cheapest per megawatt of power. It's basically middle of the road on most of the stats I've seen.
Solar, by comparison, has had a much higher LCOE as recently as 5-10 years ago. Most power construction projects take longer than that to plan and build, then operate for decades. Until the last few years, solar hasn't even be a competitor compared to other options.
Beyond direct cost nuclear has been one of very few green energy sources, the nuclear materials are contained and safely disposed of. Unless there's a serious disaster, it's one of the most ecologically friendly forms of energy. The only sources better are hydroelectric, and geothermal. The only "waste" from nuclear is literal steam, and some limited nuclear waste product. A miniscule amount compared to the energy produced.
Last time I checked, all of the nuclear waste that's ever been produced can fit in an area the size of a football field, with room to spare. For all the energy produced, it's very small.
Yet, because of stuff like Chernobyl and Fukushima, everyone seems to hate it.
I live in Ontario, Canada, our entire power infrastructure is hydroelectric and nuclear. I'm proud of that.
Nuclear isn't the demon that people believe it is.
Yet, because of stuff like Chernobyl and Fukushima, everyone seems to hate it.
Is that a bad reason really? When nuclear goes bad it goes really bad and it can go bad due to human error which is something that will always be present. When a solar panel catastrophically fails it doesn't render the surrounding environment uninhabitable for decades.
The thing is, nuclear problems are big and scary events, but they're rare.
Think like plane crash vs other transportation accidents: they make bigger news, but they're actually safer than most other solutions.
Here's the data: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/death-rates-from-energy-production-per-twh
It does seem that your solar example is the one thing that's safer than nuclear sccording to this chart though, so maybe you knew!
You took the words right out of my mouth.
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LCOE of solar is lower than nuclear for eleven years now. Wind has had lower LCOE than nuclear for 14 years now. See figure 52.
Building a new nuclear power plant takes 9-12 years on average. Hinkley Point C in southeast England was announced in 2008 (16 years ago) and is projected to be finished in 2028, with costs now being estimated around $40 billion. These long realisation times are not a european issue alone, as Korea's Shin-Hanul-1-2 faces similar problems.
Safely storing nuclear waste is expensive, too.
Maybe I shouldn't step in this but here it goes. My personal opinion is that nuclear isn't good or bad, it's an option that's available. I have never heard a nuclear activist say that nuclear energy is superior to renewables. It's not black and white, it's all a complex mix of demands and limitations that dictate if renewables are better for an area or nuclear. It's a whole lot of gray, but nuclear energy isn't as dangerous as some make it out to be.
Your comment is valid, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
I wouldn't say that nuclear is the best option, nor cleanest, nor safest. Like anything, it's all circumstantial. Sometimes it makes sense, sometimes other options are simply better.
From what I've seen, nuclear is the best for base load on a grid scale. Basically: the load that the grid continually has, is well served by nuclear. To my understanding, most nuclear generation is fairly slow to ramp up and down, compared to other technologies, so keeping it at a relatively steady level, with minor adjustments and changes through the day as required, is the best use case for it. It's stable and consistent, which is to say it doesn't vary based on external factors, like the weather, where solar/wind are heavily influenced by external factors.
It's entirely on a case by case basis.
You're right, you shouldn't have stepped in. At least,you shouldn't have stepped in and build a strawman. The discussion you entered is about costs, not dangers.
You're wrong, I didn't talk about dangers and I didn't put up a strawman. If you wanted to pin a logical fallacy on my argument you should have said I made a generalization fallacy or an informally fallacy because I was so vague. It's actually pretty telling that you're attributing a lot of intention where there was none. I am not going to spend the time or energy to make a legitimate argument with some random jerk on the internet that ultimately just gets us Internet points. I have more important things to do with my time.
And honestly my only reason for posting is to make the comment number go up one tick to keep these communities going. I really don't care about what you think and unless you're in a position of power no one else does either.
Edit: I'll downvote myself, I don't approve of anyone behaving like either of us.
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No. And pretending it is longer for solar is false too. https://www.lazard.com/media/2ozoovyg/lazards-lcoeplus-april-2023.pdf
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Sure, we could save ourselves from extinction, but what about shareholder value?
It's more expensive than solar, wind and batteries, though. Not just coal or gas.
Just remember that Low level Radioactive Waste is a thing, unless there’s a fast reactor that runs on smocks and used syringes
This is the thing a lot of people don't understand. The vast majority of radioactive waste isn't fuel. It's cladding, PPE, etc
I don't think even one of those fast fission reactors is still in operation. Wonder why that is.
Canada has CANDU breeder reactors, still in use. They also produce the majority of medical isotopes.
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It's not really needed. Waste is a boogeyman, but not really a problem. It takes an incredibly small volume to store the waste, and it can be reduced with reprocessing to run in the exact same reactors.
At some point in the future when there actually is a huge amount of waste causing issues, then it might make sense to build a reactor to use it.
when there actually is a huge amount of waste
Over 60,000 tons of spent nuclear fuel are stored across Europe (excluding Russia and Slovakia), most of which in France (Table 1). Within the EU, France accounts for 25 percent of the current spent nuclear fuel, followed by Germany (15 percent) and the United Kingdom (14 percent). Spent nuclear fuel is considered high-level waste. Though present in comparably small volumes, it makes up the vast bulk of radioactivity.
~ 2019 https://worldnuclearwastereport.org/
Last "brilliant" plan I heard was dumping it in a hole deep enough we'd never need, nor be able to recover it.
Weight is a way to make the problem sound worse than it is, because nuclear waste is so incredibly dense. It's not enough to be a big deal yet. Dumping it deep into the ocean is an option, but it's only going to happen to waste that doesn't have potential uses first.
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A quick question . Other than a suprisingly lot of complexity involved in diggin the hole of sufficient size and depth why wouldnt it work ( or is that the reason )?
It would work, they're just a hater.
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Because, it does not destroy all waste, despite a cartoon claiming as such and gullible people falling for it? Even "short-term" waste needs to be stored somewhere for about 500 years. Sure, it ain't like the others in terms of length of time but anyone who thinks that is a cheap fact or trivial is an idealogue. Since they can exist at both extremes.
So the issue of the water table or general environmental contamination is not addressed the way OP claims. There are also higher costs and higher grade fuel is required. Not to say that there are not some advantages but the cartoon is just plain incorrect and taking a toodler's view on some serious concerns. The Wikipedia article has a list of disavantages for anyone to look into.
I blame Nixon for why nuclear power in the US sucks. He axed research on any reactor types that didn't produce plutonium for weapons, including thorium reactors. Hope he's rotting in hell.
According to the future-documentary Futurama, his head is in a jar somewhere, waiting to assume the presidency once again with the headless body of Spiro Agnew.
Nah, they also depict Henry Kissinger that way, but we all know he's dragging what's left of his body across a minefield in hell.
They're politically unpopular, more expensive than fossil fuels, and most of them are prototypes.
India and China each have one. Russia has 3.
According to Wikipedia there are a few, with more planned. But not nearly enough. IMO, we should switch over to Fast Reactors as standard.
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