this post was submitted on 31 Mar 2025

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They'll cast you back to the Windows realm with all their toxic might (discuss.tchncs.de)

submitted 1 week ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I run 2 systems. One is HTPC with LM, the other is dual boot Windows / bazzite. I like LM and bazzite. I like it very much. But maaaaan, I had problems setting up.

LM was totally fine except for when I was trying to set up pihole, screwed some steps and tried to remove it by terminal. It somehow corrupted OS so every time I'd try to login it would crash and prompt to login again. So far it is running fine but I had issues with pihole again when I tried to update it to v6. This time it corrupted pihole itself but I have managed to restore and update it. I guess reason is that pihole doesn't support LM put of the box and requires some tinkering to install.

Bazzite, on the other hand, is totally fine now. I guess that was something related to a recent update. But before that it wouldn't load. Like screen would be black but terminal would be still accessible. I have figured out that it would crash loading gaming mode and stuck there (but I didn't tell it to boot to gaming mode) so I had to manually make it boot to desktop mode (kde) in terminal every time. If you think that I have screwed something up again - nope. Fresh install on a separate ssd. It installs and then would reuse to boot or boot after like half an hour into kde. All the rpm ostree -update or -upgrade did nothing.

I love these both systems but maaaaan if a basic user has to experience what I had, they'd stick to mac/windows for the rest of their life.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children)

I gave up my proxmox because it was too frustrating not even being able to plug in my media usb drive to host on jellyfin. Windows is so simple and ofc not so secure by design like linux

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 week ago (1 children)

"The new Windows Terminal is so slick! And PowerShell is soooo awesome! When will Linux get cool neat powerful stuff like this?"

"Uh... About three decades ago?"

(To be honest, PowerShell is neat. But it's also cross platform, so if I really want it on Linux I guess I can get it there too? I don't really need to, I'm in middle of rewriting some PowerShell stuff in Python)

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago

I actually love the cross platform PowerShell stuff for two reasons. One it's really nice to be able to have something that works on my windows environment and the Linux one, and 2 because PowerShell is enormously better than bash.

[–] [email protected] 38 points 1 week ago (17 children)

A true mainstream Linux distro would need guidelines like this:

The user is never be expected to type a command into a terminal.
The user is never be expected to edit a configuration file.
There is a graphical UI for every possible action the user might want to (or have to) do.

This especially includes:

Configuring audio devices
Installing graphics drivers
Updating the operating system
Managing applications and storage space
Connecting to networked storage
Adjusting kernel parameters (This is neccessary on certain hardware, yet, barely any distro has a graphical UI for it.)

The only distro that comes close to this is Linux Mint, but not even Mint covers everything I just mentioned.

If we want Linux to succeed, there needs to be at least one distro that confidently ships without a terminal.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago

They don't need to take away the command line. Just to make it so a low skill user can get by without it. Even windows ships with PowerShell.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 week ago (1 children)

You were absolutely right about everything up until your very last sentence.

We need a distro that comes with GUIs for everything indeed, but shipping without a terminal would be both a bad idea and would cause the distro maintainer to go up in flames immediately.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 week ago

No pc OS available meets your requirements for this lol, not linux, windowns or crapple osx

Sure would be nice if linux was the first available though.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (4 children)

The user is never be expected to type a command into a terminal.

Nope! Absolutely not. This is where Windows 95 fucked us all over. Prior to 95, windows was an application executed from a DOS prompt. Users may not have known many commands, but they learned that commands could be given.

Windows 95 tried to convince us that a GUI developer knew better than the user everything the user wanted to be able to do with that computer. It did make simple use easier, but the way it did it was by hiding the average user away from any simple ability to automate. It took away virtually all command line utilities that could be scripted to run themselves, and replaced them with GUI-driven applications that required the human's time and attention, repeatedly and monotonously sorting through graphical menus and prompts to achieve a task that the computer could easily be "trained" to do itself. It did it by dumbing down the user, reducing their expectations to the few idea the GUI allowed them to express.

GUIs are Fisher-Price toys. They are the bright and shiny, but functionally crippled. There is no need for a distro that deliberately impairs the user in the way that you describe.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

What is your goal? Are you content with Linux being niche?

If not, what group do you think this appeals to?

The casual device user continues to ignore Windows desktops and use their phone let alone Linux at this point.

The normie desktop user who just wants a internet browser and basic office software can easily be won over to Linux Mint. You advocating everything be CLI based will kill that.

The casual desktop enthusiast & PC gamer will get irritated and impatient and go back to comfy Windows. They mostly just want their games to run smoothly and maybe look pretty. Maybe install an application that does something moderately technical for them with tweaks here and there.

You already have the hardcore techy users. They don't need to be converted.

In my opinion, Linux and its various distro's main goal ought to be to undermine for-profit OS. Not to turn everyone into computer techs. The latter is a pipe dream anyway.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (11 children)

In my opinion, Linux and its various distro's main goal ought to be to undermine for-profit OS. Not to turn everyone into computer techs.

Turning everyone into "computer techs" is how we undermine for-profit OS. The command line is a spoon. In the hand of a toddler, it goes flying across the room, along with the mashed potatoes it held. Microsoft's answer to that flying spoon is to teach the kid that they can never touch the spoon; they must let mommy do it for them (and here is "mommy's" bill for that "service").

Microsoft teaches that it is a "pipe dream" for the average person to ever have sufficient mastery over the spoon to be able to feed themselves. They taught us that spoons are scary and dangerous.

Linux keeps putting that spoon on her tray, and encouraging her to use it.

My "goal" has less to do with bringing Linux to the masses and more with bringing the masses to Linux. The "pipe dream" argument you presented should not be ported in. The "normie" should be taught from a very young age that the command line isn't "unfriendly", but wildly powerful, and well within their capacity to wield.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago

I understand where you're coming from, but this may simply be a difference in goals.

If your goal is that people become more computer-literate, then yes, perhaps we should use the GUI less. People who are already Linux users aren't going to have that big of an issue using apt instead of a GUI software manager.

If your goal is that more people use Linux, then you need to have GUI support. If anything else, it eases them in so that they're not drinking from the firehose all at once.

My litmus test would be "could I feasibly teach my grandparents how to use this?" Which I think is true of Linux Mint (yes, you need terminal for good driver management, but it's not like my grandparents do that via Windows GUI)

Also, I'm not really aware of any Linux distros that remove command line utilities - mostly, they just have the same thing in both GUI and commands

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

indeed 30 years ago it might have made sense. But it's 2025 now users want the less pain in the neck usage of a os. if my whole family is to use a Linux environement thet moment they will see a consol they will run away.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago (3 children)

if my whole family is to use a Linux environement thet moment they will see a consol they will run away.

Then they will never script anything. They will never automate a task themselves. They will only ever operate a computer manually, interactively, rather than programmatically.

Windows pushed users to remain toddlers their entire lives. They charge us for the privilege, so they want to keep spoon feeding us for our entire lives. When we see a spoon anywhere but in their hands, they want us to throw it across the room rather than pick it up and try to use it.

Microsoft wants your family to run away screaming, rather than asking what that console is and what it can do.

The objective of Linux is to put the spoon on the tray of your toddler's high chair. Linux encourages her to pick it up, poke it at her food, and keep encouraging her to learn, to develop and build on her skills, until she is asking for the fork, the knife.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

The reason I had no problem whatsoever editing config files is because I'd been doing it for decades already in Windows with .ini files.

And not needing a terminal is different than not having access to one. Windows has a terminal.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 week ago

I think it even ships with 3(?) terminals for some reason now for some reason lol

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Windows doesn't even cover everything you just said. The number of times Windows 10 broke my Bluetooth devices and I had to much around in registry to remove the device profile just to try to repair the device, is part of the reason I switched to Linux in the first place.

Yes, many distros need a little refining and smoothing for the general public, but only because people are so used to dealing with bullshit troubleshooting on Windows that they don't see it as bullshit anymore.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 week ago (1 children)

That’s a low bar, but importantly they’re still correct that technically Windows looks like it can handle those things as far as a regular consumer can see. Windows is unholy trash, but it at least doesn’t tell people who can’t even navigate their basic file explorer that they are expected to use scary terminal commands they likely found on a forum or third-party website.

Personally I think a little more tinkering spirit would do the whole world good, not just with computers, but reality is the way that it is for the moment(things can change, fingers crossed).

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

but at least people who can't even navigate their basic file explorer that they are expected to use scary terminal commands.

This! I work in IT, in fact, I'm the director of both the IT and software teams at my company and I am constantly teaching my new techs and reminding my existing techs that they need to remember just how little the "average" person knows about computers, and how much more that is than what they'd actually care to learn.

99% of people don't care about computers, or how to make things "more efficient", or anything else. They just care about the easiest way to do something. And like it or not, the easiest way for the vast majority of people is through a GUI.

There is even an XKCD about this

And that's even before you get to the security problems! I am constantly trying to prevent users from going to FreeNuclearCodes.com or sending passwords and social security numbers to [email protected] (actual email address I had to block last week)

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 week ago

There can never be a distro that ships without a terminal. I will burn it with the fire of a thousand suns. Even Windows has a terminal

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago

I struggled to install and use waterfox on a Linux the other day until I realized there was a usable executable in the folder.

Then I had to write the .desktop file myself and it doesn't have an icon I could find but it works great.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 week ago

ITT: Nerds that want mass Linux adoption but don't want to deal with people who don't share their interests and opinions

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 week ago (1 children)

There's quite some hypocrisy in learning to use windows, its obscure registry and the shady softwares that will tune it while refusing to copy commands in a terminal.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Yeah, but regedit is a GUI. So it's all cool and dandy.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago (2 children)

GUIs are an awesome tool. Humans as a species have 5 senses, and instead of limiting computers to the narrow portion of sight needed for typing, they make full use of both our visual and aural senses.

That being said, they add another layer of abstraction away from the hardware on top of the already very abstract userspace utilities that abstract away the kernel that abstracts away the machine code that abstracts away the hardware.

All of which is to say that "Just Works" is shorthand for "I don't want to actually learn how this complex tool that I'm using works, I just want it to do everything I think it should be able to based on my lack of understanding, and do so in the way that makes sense to my ignorance. And I want it to do all that without learning why we do some steps (and then I'm going to complain about how little sense it all makes)."

That mentality is what allows predatory software companies to not only take advantage of their customers—by hiding shady practices outside of the GUI, and drawing attention to and manufacturing outrage about inconsequential "features" (like ads on the start menu)—but also exist in the first place. Pushing back against that "I shouldn't have to learn the tool to use it" mentality is one of the ways we keep scam artists and spyware dealers out of Linux spaces.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago (3 children)

We got to approach this nuanced though. Yes, a strong stance against all the enshittification (incl. dark patterns and all that) is absolutely necessary to preserve the good things most Linux distros have in common. For example once KDE e.V. and the Gnome Foundation have finished their work at the payment backend for Flatpak repos we absolutely need to bolster Flathub + a handful of others (to avoid centralization) so they become a default, and through that are able to enforce a strong "no bullshit" moderation as companies are trying to "capture the market". This will be an inevitable shitshow as Linux-based OS' become more popular.

Meanwhile we have to admit that not providing comprehensible and well integrated GUIs for everything - and that includes stuff like Bootloader settings, Systemd Services Management, sysctl configuration etc. - is a shortcoming that should be remedied in the future. On rare occasions even average users will have to open these things, and it's way better if they do so through an environment they can understand and navigate. Anything else is just gatekeeping.

Linux should be accessible to everyone - that includes normies as well as those who may not be mentally able to understand or memorize CLI. This fear of enshittification is understandable in our current landscape, but it absolutely doesn't help if it stifles development towards more user-friendliness. After all nobody argues to take away the CLI in any capacity, just to add another abstraction layer for those who either need or want it. Which, assumably, are most people.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago

Have to ask, do you gdb everything you run ? You think of big sofwares like office or things like that. There are GUI tool who replace the command line better. I am thinking about the configure display GUI specifically. X config was a pain... We are better of with the GUI and drag and dropping screen to place them.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago (8 children)

gatekeeping always helps with conversion rates, keep it up 👍

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