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12
The Stars of Star Trek: Section 31 Know Why You're Nervous About the Movie (gizmodo.com)
submitted 22 hours ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
19 comments fedilink hide all child comments
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[–] [email protected] 6 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

“The people in the Federation exist in a bubble of safety and happiness, but there are outsiders to that sphere of the Federation—surrounded by the Dominion, the Founders, the Klingons [of this era], the [Romulan secret police] Tal Shiar, that don’t have the same moral relativity that we do. They would see [the Federation] destroyed to fit their moral relativism,” Kazinsky argued. “People need to understand why people don’t like the idea [of Section 31], but it hasn’t changed the idea.”

This kind of logic implies that stooping down to barbarism is OK as long as you are hypocritical about it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

To be honest, that's always been the core argument.

I don't know where the line is - obviously, the morphogenic virus in DS9 was beyond the pale, but is it wise to expect hostile neighbours to be won over by sunshine and rainbows?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

There's a very clear line between having a military and intelligence services and having a MKULTRA-era-CIA-in-space.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 hours ago

Go on...

[–] [email protected] 2 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago)

~~inb4 someone on lemmy says a single piece of media they haven't even seen is responsible for "shitting all over the entire franchise"~~

EDIT: nvm

[–] [email protected] 14 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

I’m disappointed that they clearly don’t. The same tired justifications which amount to the ideals of Star Trek are a luxury made possible by hard men doing bad things in the dark.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah. Reading the article, Section 31 seems great if you just want to just shit on everything else in the franchise. Nope, not for me.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (4 children)

@toast

I mean, in DS9, section 31 were clearly villains, right?

Not heroes in the shadow. This is what they told themselves in order to justify their shit.

@ThirdMoonOfPluto

[–] [email protected] 4 points 19 hours ago

Villains who's engineered virus forced the Dominion to the negotiating table... just saying.

"Good and evil isn't as black and white as TNG portrayed it" is kinda DS9's whole deal.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

Villains or heroes isn't the issue. It's the argument that we need a group that doesn't play by the rules that apply to the rest of society that I find problematic.

Shouldn't we strive for a world in which the rules really do apply to all? Can't we hope to conceive of a set of laws standards by which we should all be judged? Isn't the world of Star Trek meant in some way to be aspirational, rather than just a reflection of what we have now?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 18 hours ago

We live in a world that has ~~walls~~ federation worlds, and those federation worlds have to be guarded.

Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Barclay?

[–] [email protected] 17 points 20 hours ago (3 children)

It's a fundamental misunderstanding of what Section 31 is supposed to be. Sloan wasn't a good guy. 31 actively tried to commit genocide.

The idea behind them is that arguments of ends justifying the means and "getting dirty" to preserve higher ideals is morally, philosophically, and practically bankrupt. The Federation didn't need 31 to win the war, and in fact, their methods would have made it much worse. Section 31 as a plot device exists to show us that there will always be those looking to use higher ideals to support terrible actions, and we must be constantly vigilant against them.

It truly pains me how that message has been twisted, and people think Section 31 are not only good guys but also cool.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago)

What, then, is the message in the episode where Sisko "would do it all again" concerning assassinating a political rival and faking evidence to bring the Romulans into the war against the Dominion? It's an example where I can still see the show trying to say "sometimes good people must do bad things for the good of all" that doesn't even concern Section 31.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 19 hours ago

The Federation didn’t need 31 to win the war

Do we know that for certain? The cure to the virus was actually pretty fundamental to the Female Changeling ordering the Jem'Hadar to stand down. She refused to surrender until Odo linked with her and cured her.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

@astronaut_sloth

This is actually, how I understood it.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago)

Sorry if I wasn't clear; I didn't mean to make it sound like an attack or a lecture. Section 31 is just one of my pet peeves in Trek for a while. We are in agreement! 😊

[–] [email protected] 6 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

They were definitely villains in the series...but I don't think DS9 ever made a strong case that they weren't necessary (nor do I think they were trying to).

Right up until the end, the morphogenic virus was critical to the end of the war.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

@ValueSubtracted

I wanted to watch the series again, anyway. It's been a time.

As I remember it, they left it rather ambiguous, which is the actual point.

If moral choices were easy, we wouldn't have to think about them too much.

Yes, the virus ended the war, but at what price?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 20 hours ago

I completely agree.

I've often thought that there must have been plenty of Section 31 operations that didn't rise to the level of, you know, genocide, and that those operations were likely more ambiguous.

I'm hoping that whatever they're up to in this movie is more in that vein - almost certainly illegal, but probably more ethically murky?