this post was submitted on 01 Dec 2024
616 points (96.8% liked)
Memes
45893 readers
1498 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
I think it might have been Islamic terrorism.
I’ll post it again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximate_and_ultimate_causation
But for real though, Osama benefitted from Western Imperialism and was directly motivated by religious scripture, not his socioeconomic position.
Why did he constantly talk about how the attacks were politically motivated? What is the basis for claiming that he was motivated by religion?
https://lemmy.ml/comment/15291634
Are you trolling?
Who said anything about his socioeconomic position? He was in fact wildly rich. He was a product of US interventionism. He had been a CIA asset for years. He didn’t just wake up one day and decide that Allah wanted him to blow up buildings on the other side of the world, for no reasons connected to US foreign policy.
6 December 1993: Anti-Soviet warrior puts his army on the road to peace
FAIR: Forgotten Coverage of Afghan ‘Freedom Fighters’
I'm aware - I think we disagree on which is the proximate and which is the ultimate cause.
If Islamism is the ultimate cause of 9/11 then Islamism must be the ultimate cause of October 7th which is literally the same story and the same propagandistic cover in the West.
I think a lot of people don't understand geopolitics in the sense that it's not a functional system of yeses and noes, it's a system of maybes based on maybes.
The ultimate cause of October 7th is that the geopolitical factors especially the intentions of the US were to remove Palestinian question from the heart of the security architecture of the Middle East. October 7th was effective because it closed off the possibility of the Abraham Accords and a Middle Eastern security architecture based on a Saudi/Israeli/Egyptian agreement which was tacitly against Iran and the Palestinians.
Likewise the ultimate cause of 9/11 was based on geopolitical factors. The first Al-Queda fatwas said
They're literally referencing Chechnia and Tajikistan here. It's a complex geopolitical statement. This is a group that has fought the USSR, who were not Zionist-Crusaders in their opinion. The references to Chechnia and Tajikistan were directly based on the calamity that liberalization of the USSR brought upon Muslims, that the US helped lead into those positions. Much like the Chicago boys in Russia.
The second said
Bin Laden himself has pointed to the 1982 invasion of Lebanon:
The idea that 9/11 was the invention of Osama Bin Laden getting high on Islam in a Mosque while chanting and then telling his evil followers that god has told him to destroy America is a false American invention seeking to discredit the actual geopolitical arguments that underpinned the attacks, and transform them into merely cultural grievances that escalated into a war which is easy to sell to a moronic liberal audience all to ready to consume propaganda because the Soviet Union fell and they needed a new bad guy that hated them for their freedom.
The fact that this isn't common information despite being in multiple reputable places online speaks to the propagandized nature of the discussion of this event in America.
This wasn't about globohomo, women's rights, American cultural permissiveness, or any other bromides you can easily fit into "religious extremism" narratives. It was simply about the imperialism of the American Empire.
My friend, how are you so knowledgeable, I'm an avid fan of history and geopolitics. Do did you learn from books, articles, papers or just alot of digging and curiosity?
It's a combination of books, news sources, and some formal education. I was lucky that my highschool still heavily invested in humanities before I went off to a stupid ass tech collage. Beyond that I am constantly researching things because I'm weird. So when people pull up reasons that are fairly well documented quite literally easily sourced on wikipedia of all places it's incredibly easy for me to remember and reference them.
Yes, it's a rich tapestry.