this post was submitted on 14 Nov 2024
158 points (95.9% liked)

UK Politics

3139 readers
92 users here now

General Discussion for politics in the UK.
Please don't post to both [email protected] and [email protected] .
Pick the most appropriate, and put it there.

Posts should be related to UK-centric politics, and should be either a link to a reputable news source for news, or a text post on this community.

Opinion pieces are also allowed, provided they are not misleading/misrepresented/drivel, and have proper sources.

If you think "reputable news source" needs some definition, by all means start a meta thread. (These things should be publicly discussed)

Posts should be manually submitted, not by bot. Link titles should not be editorialised.

Disappointing comments will generally be left to fester in ratio, outright horrible comments will be removed.
Message the mods if you feel something really should be removed, or if a user seems to have a pattern of awful comments.

[email protected] appears to have vanished! We can still see cached content from this link, but goodbye I guess! :'(

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 

Clare Rogers says her daughter Zoe has been branded a terrorist

In August, Clare Rogers' daughter was arrested after allegedly taking part in direct action at an Israeli defence firm near Bristol.

"I discovered, three days in, still no phone call, that she was held under the Terrorist Act. And that meant seven days in solitary, and no right to a phone call... It was shocking," she said.

Zoe Rogers, 21, is one of a group of pro-Palestinian protesters charged in relation to an incident at the Elbit UK, part of Elbit Systems, a global Israeli defence firm.

Zoe was eventually charged with criminal damage, violent disorder and aggravated burglary and denied bail. Her trial is not set to take place until November 2025.

A teenage girl stands outside a house on a residential street. Image source, Clare Rogers

Zoe Rogers is one of 10 activists who was arrested by counter terror police

"The idea of my daughter being branded a terrorist just fills me with horror," Clare said.

She added: "Someone who believes so passionately in justice, is lamenting the deaths of innocent civilians and children. To be called a terrorist?

"That really disgusts me.

"It makes me very angry and it worries me about the future of activists in this country, and the expression of free speech."

A young woman on the train looking down at her lap. Image source, Clare Rogers

Zoe Rogers is being held without bail

Although Zoe was not charged with a terror offence, she and the other activists arrested at the same time were denied bail because the Crown Prosecution Service claimed there might still be a terror link. It was Zoe's first alleged offence.

"The day she appeared in court I will remember for the rest of my life. I hadn't seen her for seven days. I hadn't been able to speak to her," recalled Clare tearfully.

"The judge said 'no bail', and the next few seconds she was led out of the courtroom.

"That memory, it will stay with me forever. It was literally my child being taken away from me. I will never rid myself of that memory and the trauma that went with it."

'Mum, the marches aren't working'

A mum and daughter smiling into the camera.Image source, Clare Rogers

Clare believes Zoe should have got bail

"She is someone who is very loving and very shy," Clare says of her daughter.

"She thinks very deeply and cares very deeply about social justice. She started to see what was unfolding in Gaza and that became a huge part of her life."

Zoe went on most of the pro-Gaza marches calling for an immediate ceasefire, but started to feel disheartened.

"She said to me: 'Mum the marches aren't working, the government's not listening.'"

Counter-terror laws 'used to intimidate'

A woman wearing a hijab stares into the camera

Sukaina Rajwani's daughter is also being held without bail

Sukaina Rajwani is from Merton in south London. Her daughter Fatema Zainab was also arrested and charged as part of the same operation, and is also being held without bail.

"I believe the counter-terrorism legislation was used to intimidate and scare them and used as an excuse to keep them for longer," she told BBC London.

"I honestly thought she would get bail because she doesn't have a criminal record or convictions. She met all the bail conditions.

"She is literally a baby for me. She had only just turned 20 a week before."

Neither Clare nor Sukaina say they had any idea that their daughters might have been planning direct action with the group Palestine Action.

In a statement to the BBC, Palestine Action defended direct action and condemned the use of anti-terror laws.

"Elbit Systems, Israel's largest weapons producer, market their arms as "battle-tested" on the Palestinian people," it said.

"By misusing counter-terrorism powers against those who take direct action to shut Elbit down, the state is prioritising the interests of a foreign weapons manufacturer over the rights and freedoms of its own citizens."

Elbit Systems UK told the BBC: "We are proud to provide critical support and advanced technology to the British armed forces from our sites in Bristol, and this work has continued uninterrupted today.

"Any claims that these facilities supply the Israeli military or Israeli Ministry of Defence are completely false.”

'Law being correctly used'

A man wearing glasses talking to a person off-screen

Jonathan Hall KC is the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation

Some UK human rights organisations are concerned the legal definition of terrorism is too wide and is increasingly being used to crack down on legitimate protest and free speech.

And organisations such as the National Union of Journalists (NUJ) are also worried about the use of counter-terror legislation by police.

Michelle Stanistreet, NUJ general secretary, said: “The rise in the use of counter-terror legislation by British police against journalists is alarming and we are concerned recent cases are without clear or sufficient explanation to those under investigation.

"Being able to report freely on issues in the public interest without fear of arrest is a fair expectation for every journalist abiding by the union’s code of conduct. We have urged an end to the apparent targeting for its harm on a free press and the risks posed to both journalists and their sources.”

However, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, external, Jonathan Hall KC, believes the law is being correctly used on the whole.

"Just gluing yourself to the road is never going to be terrorism. Holding a placard is never going to be terrorism unless it's for a proscribed organisation. It's got to be serious violence against people or serious damage to property.

"It's got to hit that seriousness threshold before that could even apply."

But he says it is a fair criticism that the authorities hold a huge amount of power in the context of terrorism arrests. These situations, he says, are an operational decision for the police.

An elderly man talking on a zoom link

Human rights lawyer Michael Mansfield says the definition of terrorism is "in the eye of the beholder"

Michael Mansfield KC is a leading barrister in human rights and civil liberties. Without commenting on this specific case, he told the BBC that he believed protest was a right, not a crime.

"Genocide is occurring in many areas of the world. Genocide is an international crime. You've had a court recently indicating that the occupation of the Palestinian territories has also been unlawful for the past 75 years.

"People are saying, 'What is happening about this? Where is the accountability?'"

He admits that direct action can sometimes be a crime.

"Whether the crime you've committed is terrorism, that is the question," Mr Mansfield added. "Some of these issues are in the eye of the beholder."

'She should be at university now'

The probability of being held without bail until November 2025 has had a dramatic effect on the lives of both Zoe and Fatema, whose university places are at stake.

"She should be at university now. She'd got a place to start this autumn, her first year at university," said Clare of her daughter, who has been diagnosed as autistic.

"She worked so hard for that place. She had to do an extra year of sixth form because of Covid; she didn't get the A-levels she needed for her chosen university.

"She did another year of study, got the place, and now she can't start. She can't even start next year, because she will be standing trial. That has been devastating for her."

Fatema Zainab would be doing her final year in media studies at Goldsmith University were she not behind bars.

"God forbid if they do not get bail on their next appeal, then she will try to defer for another year, " said Sukaina. "It's all unchartered waters. Every day brings a new challenge."

Two women sitting on a sofa chatting while looking at a photo album

Clare and Sukaina have been supporting each other while their daughters are in jail

I asked Clare whether there is a difference between the right to free speech and direct action.

"Someone taking direct action to disrupt the Israeli arms industry, there is a law that oversees that and it is called criminal damage," she maintains. "It's not terrorism."

"If you look at what the suffragettes did, they were quite violent, they destroyed property, they put bricks through windows. We look on them as heroes.

"I think people will look back at people who took direct action in this context as heroes in the future."

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

They are concerned about the genocide in Gaza and the part our government and our taxes have to play in that. Picking up litter won't bring attention to that cause or spark change.

[–] [email protected] -5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)

then she should stop worrying about a genocide that doesn’t exist then, that’s easy

if she’s not sure how then just think about how much she doesn’t care about all the black lives dying in sudan or women and children dying in afghanistan or along the sahel or … you get the picture

and focus more on helping people who literally live in her own country

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

i’m so glad they may have a statement from an official which may indicate a necessary condition for the legal threshold of genocide to be met

tbh i didn’t need that to see the Rwanda genocide, it was easy to see from all the dead bodies lined along the street as they went house to house killing them all the same way Palestinians did on Oct 7th

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 month ago

mfw trump gets in and left wing progressives are still retarded

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

What a gross conjecture: she shouldn't care because those people aren't physical close

[–] [email protected] -3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

398 comments, not one on Sudan, I guess black lives DON'T matter to you eh? or is it because they're just too far away for you to care?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I was paraphrasing your own comment. Get some empathy.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I have plenty of empathy, just not for jihadi's

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

So who again? Were they the subject of conversation?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Idk why people in her own country should matter more than people anywhere else

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Because she has a direct relationship with those closest to her

Palestinians do not care about you, they will not notice this, you are not on their radar, they want to genocide Israel, you are not going to help them with this so they want you to get the fuck out of the way.

Bonus points: You're on an instance full of gays

52% of British Muslims in poll think homosexuality should be illegal

The ol' chickens for KFC

Fixing up your local area on the other hand has a direct positive impact to her and the people around her :) and if anyone needs some positivity right now it's the UK

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I don't care if they do think being gay should be illegal, ain't no reason for us to provide weapons used to kill thousands of civilians. People all deserve the right to live, it's not complex. I don't care if they don't care about me, I don't think we should bomb babies and I don't see how that's a controversial take. I agree that picking up litter is a nice thing to do but I don't think that means it's the only thing we should do.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 month ago

right, so sounds like you should be protesting iran, hamas and the Palestinians who continue to fight the idf at the expense of civilians and babies and puppies and kittens!

everyone has the right to live, even if they want to kill me! - you’re not very smart eh?