147
‘They will vote against Harris’: Arab Americans in Michigan desert Democrats over Gaza
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 14 Oct 2024
147 points (80.0% liked)
United States | News & Politics
7211 readers
283 users here now
founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
I guess that just doesn't make sense to me in the current political landscape. We know the third party isn't going to get the votes, and we also know that Trump is not only not going to save Gaza, he's going to do everything in his power to make this country worse as well. Currently, voting third party is throwing your vote away. I'm not saying I'm in love with the system or that it isn't fucked, but we have two options this election. Neither of them is going to save Gaza, but I don't see why damming the whole country, as well as yourself, to a worse existence, is the more sane option.
The right already has everything they need for "damning the whole country" with or without Trump - Roe V. Wade being overturned, all this trans panic bullshit, immigration suddenly being everyone's uncle's top issue, utter climate inaction, etc. - it's all happening under Biden's administration. What makes you think the Democrats are suddenly going to turn heel and do something about it? If they had any interest in doing anything about it, why wouldn't they be running on that? If we can't move them on the highest crime against humanity - genocide - by threatening their power in choosing not to support their campaign, what makes you think you'll be able to move them on anything else by protesting in ways that they can easily ignore and let their opposition stamp down with police response and media circus, just as long as you come back to vote for them in 4 years?
What makes you think your protests won't just end up like BLM, with the media smearing you and cops descending upon you with military vehicles, riot shields, and rubber bullets as soon as the protests become disruptive; as democrats stand by and grand stand out of one side of their mouth while out of the other they are refusing to defend you and going so far in the opposite direction of answering your demands that they put the very kind of person you're protesting against - a cop in this case - up for the highest offices in the land?
Neither of them is going to save gaza, and neither of them is going to save us either. One of them is just more annoying than the other and I personally am going to need a much more compelling reason to vote Democrat than that. By voting third party I am showing them that I am engaged in politics and my vote is on the table but only if they come and meet me where I am, as I have hit a wall in what I'm willing to support. They will either get the message and adopt more popular policy - realizing that the right will never trade Republicans for Republicans-lite and they need the left to win - or they will keep disengaging their base from their party and have a much harder time winning elections. That's their choice to make, not ours.
One side is way more than just "more annoying." You're throwing away your vote, period. We cannot be single issue voters, because there isn't only a single issue at stake. The right will vote against their own self interests every time it the right says they hate the right people.These elections are how they get their players in place. This is how we got here. The players the right have placed in courthouses, congress, the senate, and the supreme court are there reasons we lost Roe v Wade in the first fucking place.
I'm not going to sit here and think that the dems are going to fix every single problem, but I know for a fact Trump would make it worse. People pulled this same shit last election, and the one before. Thinking that, "Oh, well, they'll see that I'm not gonna vote and then they'll change." Magats will vote against their own self interest because they're damn near a cult. We vote against our own self interests to, what, prove ourselves a point? Teach our politicians a lesson? Make it harder for the Bernies and AOCs to have even a ice cubes chance of hell of even discussing change? For some reason, we can't see the forest through the trees. It's so frustrating. People like you want to make it seem like a vote for Harris is a vote for genocide knowing damn well is the only sane option we have. Because you mean to tell me you really fucking think the Republicans are going to handle Gaza with care? Or that they'll be just a little worse to work with? You genuinely believe that?
So tell me, at the end of this "protest," what's the plan? We absolutely know that the third party is going to lose, so it's either Trump or Harris who have any reasonable odds of winning. So Harris loses, are you happy in this situation? The Republicans will actively block anything to help anyone, but I guess no one getting help is better than anyone getting help in your world. I'm not happy with my choices, but I'm a fucking adult, and adults have to make tough decisions. Adults have to weigh the options. Adults have to look ahead. I know right now I have no feasible candidate to vote for that can assist with Gaza right now, but I know one of those candidates is not going to go on live television and stir a race war by claiming Haitian immigrants are eating fucking cats and dogs. I know one of those candidates doesn't believe that there are active abortions going on at nine months. I know one of those candidates isn't going to continue to restrict the rights of citizens in their own country that they don't like. I know one candidate isn't going too be too busy sucking Putin's dick for money and compliments to govern.
Right now, let's say you and your family are poisoned (not because of what you believe, but go with me here). We give you two cups. One will not only do nothing for you, it will actually make your condition worse and much more painful. Another one may help you, it could even have the antidote, but all you know is that it will not make your condition worse and will at the very least slow the spread, giving you time to think of a plan should it fail. Whatever you pick, your family has to pick too. Your choice in this scenario is to stare at both cups, willing one to change into the antidote with inaction while you continue to succumb to poison. Your family pleades to at least not make their deaths worse, to at least take the possible antidote, or at least give them time, but you're like, "no, no, no, I think these cups are starting to get that I'm not easily swayed!"
I am sorry that we're in this situation, but we are. Voting for third party is throwing away your vote. If that's what you wanna do, I can only hope that the rest of us have more sense to make up for it.
All of that text and you didn't address a single thing that I said.
You don't need to explain your line of thinking to me. I've been beaten over the head with it. I used to have the same line of thinking. It does not hold up to reasoned criticism and it simply is not possible to defend at this moment without minimizing genocide. Try it. Try having this conversation with someone that is watching their loved ones be murdered indiscriminately by our tax dollars. Go tell them how your chosen social issue is more important than Palestinian lives, that it justifies supporting with your vote and tax dollars a country that is bombing and starving living human beings, who are mostly children, and see if you feel so righteous at the end of it.
The Democrats do not care about any of your issues. They care about winning, and they care about fundraising. When their fundraising is actively threatened by your issues, the only way to get them to move on anything is to threaten their ability to win elections. Look: Biden just fucking did it, a legitimate threat to cut off aid (still only a threat but it's a start), and I guarantee you it would not have happened if this election was smooth sailing for Kamala. No thanks to you and all of you screeching about the end of the world if Trump wins.
Both of your cups are poisoned, so call their bluff. Refuse to drink the poison and demand an option without poison. The cups did not just materialize there as immutable objects, they were put there by politicians that need us more than we need them and have the power to change what goes in the cup. Do not for a second let them deceive you into thinking otherwise.
If they see they cannot win without you, they will move mountains to come meet you. Lesser evil voting does not allow for that exchange to happen. In fact it actively undermines it. That is how we got here, that is how we keep ratcheting to the right. Not any of your bullshit about unelected judges.
Gotcha. Thanks.
Just curious, but is there a red line the US could cross for you to abandon it? A red line where the Dems and Reps are beyond salvaging, and you would work outside the electoral system to enact change?
In this current landscape, no. Come November, this is it. These are the choices we have. I have to look at everything and find the lesser of two evils. It sucks, but it's where we are. No, I am not at all pleased with what Harris has had to say about Gaza, but it's not as if I have another, reasonable option to vote for in the next three weeks. So who do I think it going to be "better" for the next four years while we try again. Neither of them is likely to passify me when it comes to Gaza, but one of them believes in trans rights. Unfortunately, that is better than nothing.
One month before the election is not time to stand on business, the players are set. Now next year, and the next following years until we end up at the next election, absolutely. I have no problem making my voice heard and attempting change when it could actually do something. It's like, when they tell you to put your own mask on before helping someone else in a plane. Both Gaza and America need "air." We can even say that, while America is "light headed," Gaza has already lost consciousness. As much as I wish I could kill two bird with one stone and pick the better candidate and the one against genocide, I can't, there's no a "joint mask" that's fallen for me to pick. But if I put on my mask first, take a deep breath, I'll get time to try again, maybe even save someone. If I don't take that mask, no one is getting help and I'll just pass out too.
I have to do what I can in this moment, and right now that's trying to put the more sane of the two candidates in office.
You aren't going to try again, like all liberals you're going to sit on your hands for 4 years and contest Leftists for trying to push for actual change. That's the problem, liberals can only say they are unhappy with the status quo but work their hardest to perpetuate it.
All you're doing is putting on a mask with a hole in it.
Really, all you're saying is that you would vote for Hitler if 101% Hitler was his opponent and shame voters for voting for a leftist instead.
Maybe you aren't trying again, but don't try to tell me what I will and will not do.
And still no answers, hmm? You went to, "Nuh uh, you're shaming the left in favor of a Hitler." Still no response to what we should do except nothing or vote for something we know isn't going to make a difference. Ya'll throw out "Hitler" like it'll make someone pause, when a it does is highlight what a ignorant voter your are. If you truly think the choice we have between Trump and Harris is picking between two equally bad Hitler-like candidates, then I'm glad you're throwing your vote away, because you're a dumb ass with an oversimplified view of the world that you live in.
Do nothing then, but don't try to promote people to do the same stupid shit. Don't sit here and try to further divide the left so we can fight amongst ourselves while the fascists just keep on chugging, because that's exactly what they want. While you're sitting on your hands, the rest of us are going to work. The rest of us will try our best to get through this election so we can try again. We will vote, we will protest, and we will work. We won't sit on our hands and will the government with inactivity, or the voting equivalent of "hopes and prayers" mere weeks before an election, because we want to have a temper tantrum about the world we live in, because we don't have time for that. We are all disappointed in our candidates, but we have shit to do. We understand that allowing Trump in the office again is only going to make things harder and worse and will make any change damn near impossible. We'll be the adults for you and get shit done. You can come back to the grown up table next election, if we even get to there. But, please, let those in Gaza know that you've done literally nothing for them except try to make your own country worse. I'm sure they'll relieved. 🙄
Here, I'll even do the response for you:
"You're just saying you'd vote for the Nazis if they were only a teeny different! You can think genocide is okay, even though I'm not doing shit about it! I have to say you won't do anything too, or I may have to come to terms with my own cowardice. I'm going to throw my vote into the garbage because that'll show them Dems that I'm not playing around! Who cares if we turn into a Nazi led government. I didn't vote for them, I just did nothing to stop anything, and if I can't save everyone or fix the world in one election, everyone else can suffer because no one in my country or the world is more important than me acting like a child. I know if I say enough 'Hitler' and 'you liberals' you'll make me feel better because I'll have a position to defend! Because nothing is more left leaning than doing fuck all and allowing facisim to walk throw the door unencumbered, obviously."
You're welcome.
You don't think genocide is bad?
Both are committing genocide, you're brushing that aside.
Lmao, no I'm not.
This will be my last post because we're not getting anywhere: But I am not pro genocide. None of any of my comments in this thread have alluded as such. I am just as aware and horrified. But I'm being realistic. The US has the blood of many nations on their hands and it doesn't make me all warm and fuzzy, but in the next few weeks, I believe that the greatest use in my vote is at the very least putting someone in office who isn't going to tell Israel to get it over with and just kill everyone.
All the third party does in its current state is take dem votes, making easier for the right. Dems are not going to get any message, the right will just get the key to the city. Now, is that going to be the case next time around? I'll do what I can, no matter how small, to change that. But this year, this election, the best we can hope for is to minimize the damage because that is our only realistic option.
Both sides are commuting genocide, so are you okay with doing nothing? Do you truly believe Trump will be just as bad in office, and therefore it doesn't matter? That's a question I cannot answer for you. If you believe that voting 3rd party is going to make your stand or help someone, there's nothing else for me to say. It just is what it is and we'll have to let the pieces fall where they may.
As important as I think this election is, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
Then you have to vote third party. Israel is already doing that to the best of their abilities with US support.
Just curious, which third party would you vote for ?
Not Jill Stein, if that's what you're asking. Looking like Cornel West but I haven't fully reviewed my options. Might also write someone in. It's less about the particular candidate and more about the message I'm sending.
Yeah that's what I was wondering. Not really following us politics apart from the constant bombardment of it on Lemmy, so I'm also curious about what other candidates exist.
Ah gotcha. Didn't know any better and assumed you were JAQing off trying to make a point.
I also find Claudia De La Cruz compelling but she would be a write-in candidate in my state as she's not on the ballot here.
Hey, if you're that curious, here's an idea. Throw some darts at a map and drop the addresses into onyourballot.vote411.org. It'll spit out a list of all the local and federal races and what candidates are on the ballot for them in that particular district.
"uncommitted" may be the message you're looking for.
Trump's plan for Gaza and peace in the Middle East to let Israel kill absolutely everyone that they want to.
Anyone who thinks Trump would produce a better outcome for the people of Gaza is not thinking clearly.
In the current political system, voting for a third party in earnest or in protest (for national offices) is a blatant waste of your vote
By all means, vote in third party candidates in local, county and even state elections. Vote to eliminate the electoral college. VOTE for Ranked-Choice/Instant Runoff voting.
These are the ways to break the two party deadlock.
Jill Stein has co-opted the Green Party, and turned it into a blatant pro-trump shill organization, on behalf of Russia/Putin.
Greens once ran good candidates across the country who won a fair number of local races and took office in places where they could have a good positive effect. No more. Sadly that party has been swindled and hoodwinked by a putinist grifter.
Israel is not being held back in any way by the democrats now. How could trump make it worse? Send them napalm? Fucking think about it for a second man. Do you know what's happening over there currently? What would worse look like to you?
It's a basic philosophical question.
Say you find yourself locked in a room with a gun, and two people tied to a chair. A voice announces that if you kill one of them, you and the other go free, if you don't kill anyone or if you kill yourself, everyone dies.
Your solution to this, voting Harris, is trust the voice is telling the truth and figure out who is the worse person so you don't feel as bad about being a murderer.
Their solution is not being a murderer.
Maybe the voice is telling the truth, and thus the voice will be a murderer, but they won't be -- you would be though with your choice. Maybe the voice is lying, in which case they made the right choice and you objectively made the wrong one, the worst one.
Most humans, ideally, would choose to not be murderers, even if that means a psychopath does a murder "because" you refused to.
This is ridiculous. The most harm-reducing outcome for actual Gazans (not to mention everyone else) is if Harris wins.
Because, either Harris will win, or Trump will win.
There is NO other possibilty and no amount pseudo-philosophy word games will change that fact.
Ive yet to hear someone explain any details about how it could be worse under trump.
Here ya go
Exactly as expected
https://lemmy.world/post/22065845
How is being genocided without restraint better than being genocided without restraint?
In your example, their solution is absolutely being a murderer. They didn't pull the trigger, but they condemned those people to death. They know that refusing is killing those people, that their refusal is the cause for those peoples deaths. I'm not saying that I don't think Gaza is important, or that it's not worth fighting for, but I extend that same importance to my countrymen as well. I think the woman who may need an abortion is important, even if I never get one. I think that my neighbor's kids should have a save school, and not be laden I'm debt, even thought I don't plan to have children.
I cannot stop what's going on in Gaza. It's a horrible, terribly bitter pill to swallow, but it is the truth. However, I'm not going to set everyone else on fire so we can all burn together in solidarity. Too many other people's lives are at stake. And I'm not saying their lives are more important than those in Gaza, I'm saying they're just as important. Kill one person, or kill everyone. I would rather save someone than no one.
Exactly, you think being a murderer is okay.
That is the core philosophical difference.
You are completely okay with killing innocent people. These people are not, normal people are not.
This difference cannot be reconciled. These people will never think the way you do, and thank every God ever imagined for that, as someone needs to be the moral party if only as an example of how normalized and justified pure evil is.
Fucking ridiculous.
A vote for anyone OTHER than Harris directly results in MORE Gazan suffering.
Trump will not restrain Israel. On the contrary, he will encourage them to 'end it' and achieve "peace" by ACTUALLY genociding all remaining Palestine resistance.
Are you really so deluded to beleive all of Bidens play acting about how he was seeking peace all this time? He used 0% of his levers to make peace happen and 100% of his levers to encourage Israels murder spree.
There already has been no restraint from Biden. Genocide is genocide, and Harris supports genocide.
I'm not voting for genocide, there is no moral argument to do so.
How are you not a murder in your role play here? By doing nothing everyone dies, that blood is ALSO on your hands for inaction.
Because it was a trick. You are being tricked by the voice that you are responsible for minimizing the harm they choose to inflict on the three people in the room, if that threat is even real in the first place.
So to choose to murder anyone or kill yourself is a ridiculous position and most wouldnt take it. The voice will have to be the murderer here if thats what they want.
Or you can believe the voice without question, and kill one of the people based on some arbitrary metric you come up with on the spot to justify you choosing to kill someone.
So in this case, people are believing the lie, then choosing "the lesser of two evils" based on some arbitrary metric like "which ones better for the economy, since they both are genocidal".
I'm not the one murdering them, quite literally. Just like in real life, there is no mystical unstoppable force of nature in play. It's another person, like you. Their choices aren't your choices.
To put it another way, if you sold a kid a bike and he later crashes and dies despite the bike having no faults, are you responsible? Most would correctly identify that you are not responsible in that scenario, as the kid is responsible for what they did with the bike.
In this case your entire argument about the election is moot. If I vote for a president, their actions are not mine, I am not going to Gaza to kill Palestinians. You can even go a step further, neither Harris nor trump is personally going to Gaza to kill people. The choice of killing Palestinians is up to the Israeli people who are doing the actual killing.
The opposite. If your vote for a president their actions are yours. You endorsed and aides them.
That's not at all what I said, and I think you know that. Wanting to help someone is not the same as wanting to kill someone else. My vote doesn't save Gaza, because there is unfortunately no option, but my vote could still help someone. Not voting, or throwing it away, literally doesn't help anyone.
I hope you find peace with your indecision and your cowardice should the rest of the country not be able to make up for your inactivity. But I'm sure those suffering in Gaza will feel better knowing that someone in Texas is bleeding out in the parking lot. That'll show 'em.
Have fun in international court.
I'm sure the Nazis that just voted felt the same way.