this post was submitted on 04 Sep 2024
1 points (100.0% liked)
Ukraine
8247 readers
32 users here now
News and discussion related to Ukraine
*Sympathy for enemy combatants is prohibited.
*No content depicting extreme violence or gore.
*Posts containing combat footage should include [Combat] in title
*Combat videos containing any footage of a visible human must be flagged NSFW
Donate to support Ukraine's Defense
Donate to support Humanitarian Aid
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Honestly it's fucking ridiculous at this point. Giving them weapons but limiting their use. I can't think of other times this has happened.
It's somewhat analogous to the policy the US used with Finland around World War 2.
In the Winter War, the Soviet Union invaded Finland, attempted to annex it. The US provided financial support and some other aid to Finland. Then Germany attacked the Soviet Union and the US wound up on the same side of the war as the Soviet Union. They were both on the Allied side. However...the Soviet Union and the US didn't agree on Finland.
Stalin demanded that the UK and US attack Finland. The UK did some rather limited pro forma airstrikes. The US told Stalin that he could shove right off with that.
As long as Finland was defending its own territory, the US was okay with it. But then Finland -- who was conducting an offensive in conjunction with Germany -- pushed back Soviet forces far enough that it could head outside its borders into the Soviet Union, and even more problematically started heading towards cutting supply lines linking supplies from the US to Soviet troops fighting against invading German forces.
That was a different story.
The US told Mannerheim that if Finland started cutting into the Soviet Union and severed those supply lines, that'd be it -- it would enter the conflict against Finland. It'd support Finland defending Finnish territory, but not hauling off into Soviet territory.
Is a policy of limited support in Ukraine the right one? I don't know. But I don't think that limiting support, saying that one can fight forces that have invaded without restriction but can't go clobber things in the other country with said weapons is intrinsically unreasonable. The "you can use weapons that cross the border to hit Russian forces that are taking advantage of that policy to attack you from safety in Russian territory" isn't really a fundamental rewriting of that policy. It's just refining it so that Russia can't exploit the border to stage forces.
I don't think that it is likely that the US will move on this policy. That is, the US has probably decided, after a lot of deliberation in the bureaucracy among experts, that it is not looking to have a war in Russia. As long as Russia is sending forces into Ukraine, then those are fair game. If Ukraine wants to cut into Russia with its resources, okay, the US doesn't own those resources. If someone else wants to provide resources to do that, okay, that's their resources.
I think that Ukraine has decided that -- especially as Russia is attacking their power generation infrastruture -- that conducting a strategic campaign against power generation infrastructure and fossil fuel infrastructure in Russia is fair game. Okay, that's their call. But I don't think that that's something that the US is bound to back; the US can say "we don't want to have a strategic bombing campaign against Russia's infrastructure". The flip side of "the US doesn't tell Ukraine what to do" is "the US isn't obligated to back every policy that Ukraine adopts".
They are only asking to target places that are being used to actively attack them though. Airfields and the like. So I don't personally see a difference between attacking across the border at troops vs aircraft.
Are they? Because I see Ukraine using drones against infrastructure and sending them against the City of Moscow itself. That isn't wrong of them however it does lead to legitimate questions about where exactly they would strike with other weapons.
Yeah they've been very upfront about their targets. They want to attack places that are actively being used to attack them
Yep, and it seems like we have stopped putting riders on our weapons to Israel where it seems like they're using them to steal land.
Yet we have them on weapons we give to Ukraine who are trying to get back their stolen land.
The cognitive dissonance my country subjects me to is fucking cruel and unusual.