this post was submitted on 30 Aug 2024
634 points (87.2% liked)
196
16503 readers
2059 users here now
Be sure to follow the rule before you head out.
Rule: You must post before you leave.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Any individual who make blanket comments about whole sections of society will loose my respect pretty quickly.
Substitute women, blacks, Asians, Latinos, the Dutch, and just about every other subsection for the word “male” in that statement and this thread would be having a completely different conversation.
okay but we're not talking about another subsection... we're talking about men. you can insert whatever qualifier in front that makes you feel better about it, but you wouldn't be making this comment if they were talking about another group. this is a problem among young men. we need to be able to talk about it if we want anything to change.
obviously if you insert a marginalized group in place of a dominant one it will be different. that is how that works, yes. this type of comment only derails from genuine concerns.
There's nothing genuine about your rotten misandry. Take it, and yourself, out of here.
misandry? sure buddy, I really hold some deep hatred for men. or maybe the messaging men grow up on is toxic and ends up leading to women facing actual discrimination and violence. no such thing is happening in the other direction. women avoiding men for their own safety may hurt, but it's not the same thing.
and why are we pretending that there's some anti men agenda here? because a woman wasn't careful enough with her phrasing, she didn't say "some" men? everybody knows the numbers on inter gender violence. nobody is saying you are personally responsible. but anytime women express that men make them feel unsafe, every man in the room makes it about him. I love men, but I need to approach carefully to ensure they haven't been Tatepilled before I get close. many women are just sticking with their girlfriends. why is this controversial?
it's really frustrating to me honestly. I'm a trans woman. I've been on both sides of this conversation, and I've been on both sides of the equation. I've been a problematic man. I've been a healthy man. and now I'm not a man. I know how painful it is to constantly be perceived as a threat, and it hurt even more because I didn't even want to be a man in the first place. but this argument comes up anytime a woman talks about her experiences and resulting outlook, and it's just not productive because ultimately women are the ones in danger, while men are lonely and upset. not every man is a threat, but it's enough of them that women need to be careful, and most of them got better at hiding their problems rather than actually going to therapy. women would love just as much as men to stop having these gendered associations and live and love freely. men need to hold each other accountable, we need to change the way we teach them, and importantly, they need to listen when women talk about these things instead of talking over them.
my cohort? lmfao dude. I don't KNOW every individual man but I have to be careful no matter who it is. that's not misandry. men are scared of being lonely or perceived as threatening or being made fun of. women are scared of being raped and killed. nobody called you a rapist, dude, but we can't trust blindly.
how am I to know whether any given man is a rapist? we're talking about men here because women need to be careful around all men. I don't hate men, I generally love them; nobody wants to have to be this careful. Andrew Tate being as popular as he was only scares people more. because of all this, many women have given up on looking for male partners. I can't really blame them; in many places, the risk is high.
you're gonna blame women's traumatic responses for that? no woman made Andrew Tate say or do any of the things he did. he made his own choices. I get that men are lonely, and it sucks, but women lowering their guards puts them at serious risk. that's why they talk about needing to be careful around men. again, we cannot tell who is and is not a rapist by looking at them. if men want to stop being lonely, the first step is to break down the walls between each other. women cuddle with their friends, share their closest feelings, cry, and find emotional intimacy in each other when they can't turn to men. men need to do the same when they can't turn to women. this is not an easy problem to solve, as men have been taught to repress their feelings, and telling women to just put themselves at risk so men don't have to be lonely is unfair. it's not our job to fix broken men, and it never has been. they need therapy. when it is safer for women, they will stop acting so cautious. until then, you will unfortunately have to deal with women coming across cold and aloof because they don't want to risk their safety. it is always possible to overcome this in individual relationships, but the broader pattern won't change as long as women feel unsafe.
I never generalized about all men. I'm not treating this as oppositional, just acknowledging real social forces. I never said all men are evil and suck, nor did anyone. the original post said that men are not being raised in a way that makes them desirable as adults, and that's true. it doesn't mean no man is desirable. you're the one taking that personally. there is no bandwagon here, just women talking about their experiences and it predictably getting derailed. there's no us vs them, this can and should be a productive thing to talk about for everyone involved, but most men are very prone to getting defensive, so all that happens is an argument.
in online spaces, men always have an issue with women being "overly general" whenever we refer to general trends, patterns, and even our own personal experiences. if men want to complain about the cold treatment they get from women, they can and that's valid, because I've been on the receiving end of that and it sucks. but they don't seem to talk about it separately, it's always an either-or, the idea that only one of these sides can be valid, and they always try to speak over women or use their feelings as a reason women need to stop talking about theirs.