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Dutch Olympian who raped a 12-year-old girl ‘is not a paedophile’, official says
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 27 Jul 2024
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Dunno if I'd call 16 "surprisingly high", here in America, at least, it's 18. To the extent anyone thinks we should change it (it's not a common point of discussion, except that there's legal inconsistency between ages of consent for sex, smoking, drinking, driving, owning firearms, etc.), they think it should be 21. We also have Romeo and Juliet laws, which protect relationships between minors and people of very close ages (such as between 17 yrs and 18 yrs) from the same level of punishment as an adult assaulting a minor.
It's 14 in Germany? Yuck.
I think this comment has gotten the most responses out of any I've made in the time I've been on this platform. It's also the comment with the most negative reaction.
I'm sorry, I understand there are significant cultural differences between Europe and America, but my conscience demands that I dig in my heels with this one: The age of consent must be at least 18 (with much lighter penalties for minors, and exceptions for near-age relationships, the aforementioned "Romeo & Juliet Laws), if not a little higher, as high as 21. I do agree that American law is distressingly inconsistent, and there are some states (notably southern/Republican-controlled states) where the age of consent and marriage is disgustingly low. I comdemn them as well.
My foot is down. 18. No lower. In fact, for every negative reply from some European defending this morally repugnant practice, I'm adding another year!
Why tough. It's not like you are a child mentally by age 17 years 11 months 29 days and then BOOM birthday happens and your mind becomes mature all of the sudden.
We assume that kids grow to adults in their teenage years. And we grant them our trust and support them to make decisions for themselves, more and more so.
To me, trying to criminalize sex for teenagers has about the same effect as outlawing abortion. It will still happen, it will just be much less safe.
I want my daughter to be able to come to me about questions and if she decides she's ready to engage on sexual acts, and be able to do it at home where she's safe and comfortable and not in a car or outside or a public toilet. I don't want her to risk getting an STI because she is afraid of buying condoms or asking questions. Her feeling that she is "committing a crime" will not make her safe.
I also want to point out: rape, incest etc are obviously still illegal. And let's be clear here - sexual assault in minors is awful, but/because it is assault. There is explicitly no consent there. These cases very often happen by grown ass adults that the children know - family members or close family friends. I doubt that a 14 year old will willingly agree to have sex with her dad or uncle - no matter whether this is legal or illegal.
It's 14 in Germany but apparently parental consent is needed, otherwise it's 16.
The age of consent in America is not 18 everywhere. It is set by each state and ranges from 16-18. From Wikipedia:
While the unrestricted age of consent is between 16 and 18 in all U.S. states, the laws have widely varied across the country in the past. In 1880, the ages of consent were set at 10 or 12 in most states, with the exception of Delaware where it was 7.[104] The ages of consent were raised across the U.S. during the late 19th century and the early 20th century.[105][106] By 1920, 26 states had an age of consent at 16, 21 states had an age of consent at 18, and one state (Georgia) had an age of consent at 14.[104] Small adjustments to these laws occurred after 1920. The last two states to raise their age of general consent from under 16 to 16 or higher were Georgia, which raised the age of consent from 14 to 16 in 1995,[107] and Hawaii, which changed it from 14 to 16 in 2001.[108]
Why shouldn't it be 14. With 14 you're old enough to stand trial so you're old enough to decide who you want to fuck. There's staggered protections, though:
Technically 13/14 relationships are illegal, but courts apply Radbruch's formula to throw those cases out.
Generally, you don't get charged as an adult until you're 18 in America, so, not applicable.
I'm having difficulty parsing this first dotted point... Here, we don't generally prosecute minors who have relationships with each other, as while the law (and culture) does discourage that, it's primarily there to protect minors from sexual exploration by adults; hence our "Romeo and Juliet" laws, which protect relationships between minors and adults of similar age (such as for people born within 2 years of each other, but this varies by state).
The rest of this seems nonsensical to me, even America's laws around adulthood (16, 18, 21) are more clear-cut. I think there's a very fundamental difference in how law is conceptualized here, so I can't really understand how or why you would have a law saying 14 years is old enough for sex, but 18 for porn, but 21 for prostitution, as a premise.
Being charged as a minor is still getting charged. The offences you stand trial for are the same, it's the sentencing that differs. So if it was illegal to have sex with a 14yold, and then two 14yolds were having sex, we'd have to put them both on trial for sexual abuse of the other because they're both criminally mature. Under 14yolds cannot be tried.
Because having sex and earning money with sex are two very different kinds of things. Kids are also old enough to buy shovels and dig holes doesn't mean we let them work in the mines. They can have and earn money (within reasonable parameters, think doing paper rounds or working a trade in the context of learning a trade) and spend it, they cannot take on debt or future obligations (like a mobile contract which you can't cancel on short notice and such).
Oh, and maybe this is worth pointing out in contrast to the US: We actually have sex ed and none of that abstinence only BS which obviously doesn't work, look at your teen pregnancy rates.
I wholeheartedly agree about abstinence-only education being an absolute failure of a policy, though I should also point out that it's a state policy, and states outside of the deep-south generally have at least basic sex-ed, and some states are fairly comprehensive.
Funny enough, when living in Tennessee, it was the class teaching the course, because the teacher was unable to tell us about condoms, how to use them, or where to discretely get them for free. She didn't stop up us, I think because she wanted the class to know, but wasn't allowed to teach us proper sex-ed by law.
I do also think there's a meaningful difference between juvenile criminal law and adult criminal law, in that we treat children's ability to make informed decisions differently than that of adults'.
14yolds can make informed decisions the question is whether they bother to do so, not whether they have the capacity. The main difference in Germany is a) specialised judges and b) sentences and sentencing institutions which capitalise on the fact that youth are still very malleable. While ordinary prison guards are social workers and adults can be absolutely bone-headed and set in their ways, correctional youth institutions have an army of pedagogues and psychologists running circles around the kids, forming them.
I think there's a difference in average maturity between US teenagers and European teenagers. I moved to the states when I was 20 and was shocked about how childish some of my new peers seemed. And I remember also being completely surprised I couldn't even lift my dad's case of beer into his trunk (he's a wheelchair user). The cashier flipped out when I picked it up.
Romeo and Juliet laws do exist for many states, but not for all states, and the adoption of these laws is relatively recent. For instance Connecticut and Indiana only passed them in 2007.
No, they're not, ohmygod :D
You have an actual federal government, but yet most of the States have different and sometimes conflicting laws.
The EU doesn't have a central government, as it's composed of sovereign nations (US states are not sovereign), and we still try to standardise as much legislation and regulation as possible.
How is it legal for literal children to have firearms? How is a 16-year old old enough to drive a car, but not to have a beer or sex? How is an 18-year old old enough to determine whether they want to literally risk their lives in war, but aren't old enough to have a single beer?
It's like your dating system; it's all over the place.
Don't talk about nonsense, my American friend.