this post was submitted on 04 Jul 2024
189 points (94.4% liked)

World News

38979 readers
2184 users here now

A community for discussing events around the World

Rules:

Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.


Lemmy World Partners

News [email protected]

Politics [email protected]

World Politics [email protected]


Recommendations

For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] -5 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Years of competent and cooperative occupation? 5? Thats how long it took in Germany. Probably a bad example, but it is possible. And the occupational force reaaaaally has to work to combat the reasons for this. Under the US Occupation women had a lot more rights and presence in society. The PMCs and scumbags that led this regime however did nothing else to attract loyalty from the afghan soldiers.

Years of extractive Nationbuilding? fuck if i know.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Years of competent and cooperative occupation? 5? Thats how long it took in Germany.

I'm having flashbacks to Iraq, or rather talking to Americans about the thing when they were all gung-ho about it. "It's going to be just like Germany!" is what you always say, completely ignoring that Germany had a democratic tradition, proper civil society, well-educated population able to re-industrialise in a couple of years, Universities that pre-date Columbus, and in many ways created those very values you claim you instilled. Do I have to remind you of the US's domestic Apartheid policies at that point in time gods fucking thanks you didn't instil shit.

Also the occupation of Germany lasted 45 years (1945-1990) but that's a technicality.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Iraq was an absolute shit show and nowhere near as competently planned as the German Occupation.

Yeah, drawing up an entire rebuilding plan, funding years and years of developement in that country is definitely the same as throwing ones hands in the air and yelling "THE FREE MARKET WILL FIX ALL OF THIS" while disregarding any local democratic initiative. Torturing the civilian population, releasing the entire army on day one, thereby creating 400.000 armed and disappointed men.

Iraq did not fail because the Americans or the West couldnt. It just had no interest at that time.

Btw, the democratic tradition in Germany was barely 14 years old and was hated by more than 30% of its pre war population. We had just come out of commiting the worst genocide in history and most of us cheered for it.

I cant mention it enough: Under the american occupation, afghan women and minorities enjoyed more protection and participation than they ever had in the last 100 years. And as soon as the military presence went away, women were kicked out of public life and the Taliban started ethnically cleasing the Hezaras.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Btw, the democratic tradition in Germany was barely 14 years old

The SPD was founded 1863. Germany had been a constitutional monarchy with a parliament for quite a while, based on Prussia's introduction of the thing in 1848. That was introduced not so much by grace of the King but because of the people demanding it.

And, no, the Americans didn't have a plan going into Germany, either. Not having plans is kind of their thing. They didn't even plan on entering the war, remember. I could go into endless detail here but that e.g. VW still exists is due to the Brits, definitely not US policy, and let's not forget the French keen on overcoming arch enmity and turning it around into European integration.

We had just come out of commiting the worst genocide in history and most of us cheered for it.

For claiming to be German you know preciously little German history.

Under the american occupation, afghan women and minorities enjoyed more protection and participation than they ever had in the last 100 years.

Yes. And it was a grave mistake to not arm the women. Imagine the Taliban trying to take Kabul if there were two or three women battalions around, very much fighting in self-interest, calling their male colleagues limp-dicked over not putting up a fight.