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Yeah, but see... All the people in russian occupied territories weren't given a choice. russia occupied and that's that. Regardless of people's wills. And they're doing the same in Ukraine. Except Ukraine is fighting back. If they were to negotiate peace it would simply mean giving up on the people there, because russia would never give them back, getting more territory was the whole point of the attack. So if the people are pro russia sure, those people won't mind. But if they're pro Ukraine? What happens to those people? And what happens in a few years when russian forces will have regrouped and they'll have enough ammo and weapons to attack again? Because history shows they'll attack again...every few years they take more land. Should everyone from Ukraine just move somewhere else and leave the land for russia to avoid bloodshed? Then maybe Poland and Moldova should do the same, because russia will want that land too. Maybe we should all just become the russian federation. That way for sure no more blood will be spilled. And of course all of this is on Zelensky because he's the one that attacked. It's all because of him. If he were a good puppet like lukashenko none of this would've happened. That fucking Zelensky... Fuck him for standing up to russia and trying to steer the country towards the EU and NATO, right? It's all his fault. Before him everyone was pro russia. He could stop putin if only he'd give him what he wants. It's that simple. Right?
That's a fair argument.
But comparing that (simply living under a different government, which is actually extremely similar to the old one) with killing people is not fair.
I don't know, what happens?
They have a choice to do as they please - they can sell their real estate (if they have any, if they don't then it is even less of a problem) and move to unoccupied Ukraine territories (although it would be a very weird choice, because there they would be trapped, and wouldn't be able to go back, so this is a one way trip...), or they can continue living on the occupied territories like many have done.
This is a speculation of what will happen, and unfortunately I've lost my crystal ball so it's not possible for me to confirm whether you are right or wrong.
As for regrouping of the forces... I believe that neither of us is a military expert (let me know if I am wrong), so in my opinion it is Ukraine that needs regrouping (even the western media seems to be predicting their fall now, but of course I can be wrong there), in your opinion it might be the other way around, it's hard to debate on that.
Please point me to the message where I said that?
The causes for the war is a whole another dimension to discuss, that would include a "war" against Russian language in Ukraine (when it is the language spoken by half of the population, give or take, and that was considered being set as second official language), the glorification of Bandera (you can look up his deeds during WW2, Poles love that guy), and lots of other stuff, but as I said it's a different topic to discuss.
Russia indeed is the one that attacked Ukraine and I've never said otherwise.
Indeed fucking Zelensky. Not for standing up to Russia though, but for murdering other people to achieve his political / ideological goals. If he wouldn't kidnap people and treat them worse then dogs, I would support him (at least to some extent - as I said previously I believe that in case of Crimea and Donbas it was the will of the people to join Russia, but I don't think it was the case with the other annexed territories), and possibly even donate. But in the current situation - supporting him is equivalent to supporting killing of my friends, family and every other Ukrainian still trapped there. How can I do that? Other people would support him as well. But for now, don't you think that it is absolutely logical for Ukrainians who dare to want to live - to actually support Russia? It is in our interest for Russia to win, because this is the scenario where we get to live, and in the other scenario we die. This is why I (and many other people, it's just that you won't hear that in western media, because that is not the current narration. Surprisingly, you might actually start hearing more about that, because now even some of my very pro-Zelensky friends started to wake up as well. Unsurprisingly this happened because now it started to affect them as well, it was okay for them when it was other people's problem) hate Zelensky - he makes it impossible for us to support our own fucking country, supporting the invader is the only logical choice if you throw emotions out of it.
In the last negotiations before Zelensky had forbidden negotiations with Russia, it was agreed that Russia doesn't mind Ukraine joining EU.
Doesn't mind joining EU? Oh, because I assume 2014 was a coup and not people being mad at the president refusing to sign a trade agreement with the EU and choosing closer ties to russia despite promises right?
Like those negotiations where russia promised not to attack Ukraine if they gave up their nukes, yeah.
Also, you need a crystal ball to see whether russia will keep doing what they're been doing for the past 30 years? You're so cute.
And I find it hilarious that you're rooting for the perpetrators of the Bucha massacre. I guess none of your friends were there so that was fine. Well, if that's what your logic dictates, very well. Good luck with that.
But yeah, either you're a very naïve ukranian or more likely what I've been saying from the start. Guess it doesn't really matter.
Why are you asking me? It's a publicly available info, not my opinion.
From wikipedia:
A sudden appropriation of leadership or power; a takeover.Seems to suit that definition.
Yeah, they did that. Now, would you please be so kind to tell me about a country that never broke any internation laws, agreements, etc.? Pro tip: you can't.
Does it mean that nobody should negotiate with each anymore because we all did bad things in the past, and we should instead just kill each other?
Yes, thankfully none of my friends were there.
But this is again an unfair comparison!
According to the wikipedia - a few hundred people were murdered there. Let's add to that a few thousand more civilians that were killed by Russian forces. Let's say it is a ten thousand, give or take. This is a horrible number. Yet the number of people killed/wounded by Zelensky's regime is an order of fucking magnitude greater than that! Estimated to be in hundreds of thousands!
If you were given an option where you could die with 1% chance or with 10% chance, which option would you choose? I think for most people the answer is clearly the former. My logic indeed dictates that, and I would choose it every time. Does your logic say otherwise?
So you're damn right I'm rooting for the "perpetrators of the Bucha massacre" instead of "perpetrators of mass genocide of Ukrainians". If there was a good side to root for, I would. But there isn't. So I support the side that I consider the lesser evil, the side which gives Ukrainians a hope of survival.
Could you please explain to me, how does "rooting for" the side that increases the chance of survival for my family and all the other Ukrainians mean that I am naïve?
Or if you think what you've "been saying from the start" (basically that Mr. Putin pays me to write comments on lemmy), why do you think so? Why isn't it logical for a Ukrainian to hope that Russia will win? I argumented my position, that it's as simple as increasing the chance of survival for oneself and their family. Isn't that the most precious thing one has?
First of all, what putin says and what putin does are 2 different things, that's the whole point. Actions speak louder than words and his actions have been that of a fascist dictator. I don't give a fuck what he claims he's open to before submitting a peace proposal that he knows nobody will accept.
Secondly, I was referring to the russian propaganda that claims it was an American coup as opposed to a people's revolution. Both are technically coups, but usually coup is used when a military or o elite group takes power, as opposed to the people getting fed up with a corrupt government. "a coup, is typically an illegal and overt attempt by a military organization or other government elites to unseat an incumbent leadership"
Third. Please spare me... You're literally saying 100 people getting raped and murdered by an attacker is better than 1000 people dying for the freedom an entire country. Also, "31,000 killed, 7,000–8,000 missing", definitely not an order of magnitude greater. And again, you're attributing the blame on Zelensky and not on putin who attacked or the russians that killed them. That's fucked up. Imagine if the US had stayed home instead of helping Europe during WW2. That would've meant a lot fewer people killed too, btw. You're literally rooting for a miniHitler. Only difference is that now Hitler has nukes and NATO are afraid of those. Anyway, I'm really done now. Can't really talk to someone that admits the Bucha massacre was a thing and argues that those people should win the war. There's literally nothing I could say to that. If you don't think that's wrong, then I don't know what to say to that. I'm out, bye.
There's nothing I can say to arguing that "killing Ukrainians is okay because they are killed 'for the greater good of stopping a miniHitler'" as well. I don't find it morally correct to kill people that done nothing wrong.
And also,
Is lower than even Ukrainian propaganda is saying, it's twice that number for the first year of war (US estimate), so about 4 times that number as of now, by US estimate.