FAQ
Q: why not organize and stop treating the bus as a legitimate entity? why aren’t you working to stop the bus?
A: do both. cut the fuel line. break windows. put oatmeal in the gas tank. but maybe your efforts don’t succeed this election cycle. and if so don’t fucking throw away your vote if it can help your neighbors fucking survive. “harm reduction” is not a political strategy for action. it is a last minute, end of the line decision to save lives, after all other resources have been exhausted.
The problem is that "moderates" are very conservative and fascist-leaning as well. The Biden administration is still funding genocide, still turning away asylum-seeking migrants, hell Biden hasn't even followed through on releasing prisoners convicted of marijuana convictions.
And people ARE protesting now, but not as much as under Trump, and these things haven't changed. Biden allows barely engaged liberals to think everything is okay, but Biden is still AWFUL he just has better optics to liberals.
Here’s the fucking frighting thing, the moderates I know(relatives mostly) hate Biden because of the price of gas and groceries, that he isn’t killing everyone trying to cross the southern border, and believe Trump will be better for America in these crazy times. It’s fucking depressing to hear
This is what I'm saying - the moderates fucking suck and it's not worth trying to win them over. Move the party left, the zombified vote-blue-no-matter-who Democrats will vote for a more leftist candidate just like they vote for a more moderate candidate.
I agree with your goal and the spirit of what you’re saying completely, but we’re kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place right now. Unless something completely unexpected like multiple age related deaths or a violent revolt happens there are only two candidates with any chance of attaining the office. Which means we have to make a choice. A choice I hate making but I want to continue to make choices in the future so it’s one I have to make.
I do understand that take and desire for harm reduction. I am a trans person and my and my friend's rights are constantly politicized by both parties. But even under Biden, trans people are actively being targeted in certain states, and under Trump, trans rights were strengthened in other states. The president can only (or chooses to only) do so much. But things the president can change include foreign policy, military actions.... so I think refusing to vote for Biden over the issues he has the most direct power over is absolutely appropriate.
I believe that voting third party could enable long term change, and that voting for Biden is perpetuating the system that is already causing so much harm.
Ok so, Trump and the GOP are marching head first into genocidal fascism and you’re naive to think you’ll ever get to vote again if he’s elected. The president only has so much power because it’s checked, that won’t happen this time as the courts are stacked to allow christofascim and both houses of Congress are hamstrung with infighting. Some state govs will resist and I applaud that but it leads us into constitutional crises and in my mind civil war. As a trans person I think you should understand the threat to your very life if Trump regains power in this current political world we exist in. Biden fucking sucks all around but we buy more time with him, which is a shitty comprise, but Trump term two, signals the end of the United States and puts the final nail in the coffin of doing anything to mitigate climate change. Not to mention the dissolution of nato which he’s verbal said he’s inclined to induce, which means the end of Ukraine as a nation and likely a Chinese takeover of Taiwan, is also suspect a rollback in workers rights and more tax cuts for the rich.
A third party vote only matters when the message sent matters to the recipients. The only way it MIGHT is if Biden wins and democracy continues. Because Trump won’t give a good goddamn.
We don’t have the luxury of that right now and I hate it too, but it’s the lot we’ve all fucking drawn.
if biden wins, he can't possibly lose another election, so nothing would matter to him. but i reject outright the labeling of any party as "third party" or the idea that it's supposed to send a message different from any other vote. when you vote, you are saying who you want to have the position. i don't want biden to have it, so i won't be voting for him.
he was elected before and we've had votes since then.
I think you're thinking fatalistically when we have the capacity to try to change things.
a civil war sounds overall good? realistically, I don't think there will be a peaceful dissolution to the United States (has this ever historically happened?), and if some states could escape and self-govern, the people in those states might be better off. a constitutional crisis is long overdue. also justifying a vote for the candidate who is funding genocide by saying you want to avoid civil war is kinda hypocritical right? war for thee but not for me?
SOME people are buying time under Biden, other people in many states are not doing well at all!
Trump can't dissolve NATO by himself https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/13/politics/congress-trump-nato-what-matters/index.html
the most he can do is defund the military, which would weaken the United States ability to enact NATO obligations. And defunding the military seems good?? If he wants to do that for that weird roundabout reason.
also, the United States is only one of many countries in NATO. the states of Taiwan and Ukraine wouldn't instantly crumble. and you're so concerned about the right to statehood, but you're willing to throw Palestinians under the bus?
Ok wow you’re delusional and unrealistic
a second American civil war would be the most horrific, violent, and bloody war in all of human history and the species let along civilization would have very little chance at surviving again. Secondly if you think trump will stop Israel from genociding I have a bridge in Arizona. Biden hasn’t been funding Israel for 70 years we the American people have. Trump funded Israel when he was president. Yeah we’ll all be better off when there are insane Christian warlords sacrificing people to the Lord in Tennessee. Totally makes it seem like you have a foot in the reality of what a war within the US would look like
so are those people that aren’t going to be saved by Trump? Things will get better if you spite vote?
all Trump has to do is order the US military out, the rest of nato won’t do shit to enforce that because the US has the largest military and without it nato is horribly undermanned and would collapse in a domino fashion. You’re fooling yourself here. These are all things written on paper, fascists don’t give a fuck about shit like that
I’m done here and you’re blocked. I don’t have anymore energy to spend on someone so hopelessly deluded about the gravity of our current situation. I honestly hope you’re just a bad faith actor. Go to hell, I love you
oh I started to write a thoughtful answer then saw you blocked me.
You are the one who is hopelessly deluded about the gravity of our situation. Under Biden, we are already living under a totalitarian, racist, transphobic government. A civil war is a hypothetical, the genocide is actually actively happening right now with funding that Biden approved. Many Democrats have expressed enthusiastic support for Israel's violence.
Trump is literally a fascist. You’re damn right Biden has better optics…because he isn’t a fascist. So who are you voting for then?
Biden is also a fascist, he's just not proud about it
No he isn’t and the fact you’re equivocating him to Trump is frankly ridiculous.
He’s a capitalist, imperialist, hegemonic proprietor. Sure. Fascist he is not.
He is funding Israel's genocide, that is fascist. He is president of one of the most incarcerated nations in the world. Has he done anything to eliminate the prison industrial complex? He leads the most powerful army in the world.
Democrats do just enough to make it so that liberals don't feel icky about their day to day lives.
According to this logic, the US has been a fascist state since WW2 due to its creation of and unwavering support for Israel.
... yes??? yess???!!
And when we had slavery?? (which we continue to have now in our prisons)
And we do torture,
and we assassinate black people when they organize,
we have a huge military worship culture,
and we have so many territories and military bases abroad and have funded so many horrible dictators
How are you not seeing it? Honestly?
Sure. So what do you propose to do next?
The context of this thread is that you're specifically labelling Joe Biden a fascist. Why single him out if it's the whole system and everyone in it?
Exactly, why vote for him? Vote for a third party candidate and stop voting in fascists.
Biden should be criticised for not demanding Israel stop unnecessary civilian deaths.
It seems like by this logic every western nation leader who hasn’t directly intervened to stop Israel is a fascist.
Plenty of countries have trade relationships with Israel and are funding their war indirectly.
What I have seen though is that as pressure is applied to Biden on this issue he is more likely to ratchet up pressure on Bibi to rein it in. The same could not be said if Trump were in office.
Again though I ask you, who are you voting for if not Biden?
Yes!!! They are all fascist countries! And there are a few that are taking steps to end it.
Biden is not "failing to stop unnecessary civilian deaths" - this is a Zionist framing that paints the genocide as a just war. It is a genocide and Biden is ARMING the military commiting genocide. Biden is actively involved.
Biden is not pressuring Bibi in any real way whatsoever.
Let me ask you how Biden and the Democratic party are supposed to be held accountable, how are they going to change if people keep voting for them? Because so far they have NOT changed. The strategy of continually voting in lackluster candidates has not gotten us anywhere.
You know fascism has an actual definition right?
If the United States does not seem like a fascist country to you, you are probably very privileged and politically undereducated. We are funding a genocide for an ethnostate. We have a hugely inflated prison population for whom slavery is legal. No country even comes close to the amount of money we spend on the military, look it up it's not even close.
Sure, we have democratic elections, but so does Russia. When the "good guys" win the presidency, the United States is still doing all those things I mentioned.
Lotta hyperbole and angry assumptions about who's privileged and politically uneducated in this conversation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism
There are so many definitions, I don't know why you insist on one that apparently doesn't include slavery, genocide, and military worship.
Yeah, I agree that it’s a shit situation and an undesirable choice. But the unfortunate political reality we currently live in is that it’s either Biden or Trump.
Yes, the Biden administration is supplying weapons to Israel that are being used for genocide. Trump has commented that Israel needs to “finish the problem.”
Yes, the Biden administration is turning away asylum seekers on our southern border. Trump has said that migrants are “poisoning the blood” of our nation.
I challenge your last point regarding marijuana convictions: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/10/06/statement-from-president-biden-on-marijuana-reform/
But I will again will contrast that Trump rescinded the Obama-era policy of not pursuing marijuana charges at the federal level in states where it was legal. A clear and significant step backward.
https://www.lastprisonerproject.org/president-biden-issues-additional-cannabis-pardons-but-still-no-one-has-been-released
it's optics
It’s not ”just optics”. Per your source he did pardon 6,500 individuals, which the Last Prisoner Project described as “progress for those eligible for relief.”
Now they do argue that the Biden administration should go further by pardoning 3,000 additional people, which I agree with. But to call this step forward “just optics” is at best disingenuous.
It's not nothing, but it's barely anything. He could also deschedule cannabis.
Tell that to the 6,500 people that got their freedom back.
And I reject your assertion that it’s barely anything: by your source’s count he pardoned 2/3 of the people caught up in these archaic cannabis laws.
Referencing back to OP, would you rather have 2/3 of an ice cream cone or go off a cliff?
No, he likely cannot unilaterally do that: https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/can-president-biden-legalize-marijuana-1220802/
Do you at least acknowledge that slow incremental progress, while admittedly not nearly enough, is definitely better than going backwards?
There are different opinions about who has the power to deschedule cannabis, but Biden has not even tried. He is working on rescheduling, but that seems to be an "incremental step" that would also cause problems
https://www.forbes.com/sites/sarahsinclair/2024/03/18/biden-says-hes-taking-care-of-federal-cannabis-laws-but-is-rescheduling-enough/?sh=290affc94e8d
I think that boycotting a vote on Democrats until they adopt leftist politics is a completely valid way to move the party. Republicans have essentially done the same, remember the Tea Party movement? It worked for them. The "incrementalist" approach has left us with a president who won't even say the word Genocide, worse is activity funding genocide.