this post was submitted on 21 Mar 2024
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Virtually everything you state is false. China does not technically have a command economy, but this is not necessary for socialism in the first place. China engages in plenty of economic planning, far more so than capitalist states. That is precisely why China can build 45,000 km of unprofitable high-speed rail in less than 20 years and install more solar generation capacity than all other countries combined in 2023.
Industries in China are also far more worker-controlled than they are in capitalist states. Estimates for the level of state-ownership range from 20-40%. Much of the remaining "private sector" is composed of worker cooperatives. Search up "Farmer specialized cooperatives", which comprise of more than 100 million households (not people, households).
As for the Uyghur thing, even western media has largely abandoned that point since it was too easy to see that no one was being killed. I mean, you can buy a plane ticket to Xinjang right now and see for yourself. Now the smarter ones have downgraded it to "cultural genocide". In a few years, when the Uyghur language and culture will still be around just fine, they will quiet drop the whole topic.
They can
Have you not heard of the great firewall. Do you think Nike and iPhone factories are coops? Furthermore genocide does not explicitly have to be killing civilians. Xi did things such as forcefully reeducate children, force Muslims to eat pork, and forcefully sterilize them, thereby making them and their culture die out. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China
Do you understand why the firewall exists?
Whether it prevents bourgeois propaganda or western propaganda, it's not worth it when the people aren't free. I also find it to be very opposite to Marx implying that the Chinese government wouldn't try to control their people if they could.
Here's a paper covering the topic from a few years ago.. It goes through the history, motivations, and effects of the Golden Shield Project. It also briefly covers the opinions from people on both sides of the firewall and tries to remain neutral as it's a research communication. Download the PDF to read.
What the paper doesn't cover deeply is what information the CPC has chosen to censor and why. Materials subversive to the stability of their country. From whom? Of what nature? What historical precedent exists that would have made them want to do this in the late nineties?
Exploring the history of interactions between socialist countries and liberal countries will shed light on this. I'd also suggest looking into examples of censorship in western liberal countries and contrasting them with censorship in China.
Your reply pointed to a lot of assumptions from the Western liberal perspective, which is actively antagonistic and hostile towards China. If the only perspective you ever consume is from states who consider China a threat to their power, then of course you will hold a negative bias towards China.
The more you study, the better you will understand. If you approach the topic wanting to demonize China, you won't learn anything. There's a lot more to unpack here including Western media bias and leftist theory beyond Marx. This is just a stepping stone to understanding.
If you don't know the purpose and goals of the project that the firewall is part of, then you don't understand why China has a firewall.
Tell me, are you really free or do you assume you are free because you've always been told you are free and you've only ever heard one definition of freedom? To me, the illusion of freedom of speech, the illusion of freedom of choice, and being told to choose between a handful of shitheads who don't represent or act according to how I would like to see our society run is not freedom. It's just authoritarianism from a different source. It's who has power that matters to me. I'd rather be held accountable by my peers than by a bunch of chucklefucks who only see me as an expendable resource.
This weak ass liberal may not be reading anything, but I am eating up all these sources. Thank you, everyone. Also, God damn it, now I have hours more of reading any to do. At least I've covered some of these topics before, so some of them might be review.
How is it opposite to Marx?
Marx said that the state was inherently oppressive. But I guess I missed the part where he said that it doesn't matter if the party brands itself as communist.
If you bake a cake and you have this magnificent idea in your head; do you gather all the ingredients and then presto magic you have a beautiful cake in front of you? Or is there some sort of process that’s missing? Some sort of transitionary period?
There’s a reason it’s called Marxist-Leninism too, older works can be superseded or reanalyzed by newer works in a more refined context.
Baking doesn't cook down the ingredients and claim it's heating them up.
In that case, why do they call it oven when you of in the cold food of out hot eat the food?
You could call any machine anything, yet it doesn't become the thing.
Yes it does. A name inherently defines the characteristics of whatever it’s being used for. For example, the names your mother calls me during sex defines the intrinsic nature of our relationship, that is me being the oppressive dom authority figure (because I’m a tankie), and her the submissive proletariat.
Demolished
You cooked him with this one 😭😭😭💀💀
😭😭😭💀💀💀
Where did he say that? Can you quote the passage?
That very out of context quote is saying that under capitalism the state is used by the bourgeoisie to advance their common interests, not that the state "is inherently oppressive".
The hurdle a lot of illiterate liberals have to get over when they read Marx is that his use of oppressive isn't a moral assertion, it's a dialectic.
Yes, a state is opressive. It is the oppression of one class for the benefit of another. As long as a state exists, there is an existing class divide in the place that state exists.
Do you think the bourgeoisie care that the state is oppressive? No. Because the current form of the state serves their interests. Should workers care that a bourgeois state is opressive? Yes. Because a bourgeois state will actively sabotage any attempt by the body of labor to free itself.
As long as this dynamic exists (either domestically or internationally) states will continue to exist, and the form of that state will take on the character of the class that controls it.
In "The Civil War in France" Marx directly condems the revolutionaries (though respects their lofty aims) for not taking over the State in Paris. For not opening the banks, exploiting the existing power structure, and then destroying the bridge behind them. The Paris Commune is one of the first direct examples of a suddenly stateless society failing in the face of an organized bourgeois state.
If you want a socialist project to survive, you have to learn from the mistakes of the Parisians and take hold of power and use the oppressive nature of the state to cement the new order or you risk reactionary movements that aren't afraid to wield that oppressive power destroying all you've built.
And this is a hard thing for liberals to get their heads around because it's something that Marx changed opinions on the second he saw what had happened in Paris. Unlike most liberal political economists who are dogmatic in their beliefs and theories, Marx was driven primarily by the state of things and analysis of reality. His theories changed as he saw them practiced.
I bet you can't even tell us what that actually means lol
The state is inherently antagonistic to the proletariat, because their controlling society gives rise to them creating their own class within the bourgeoisie.
Ehhhhhhhht wrong. What did Engles say about the state in On Authority? There's literally a whole ass book called State and Revolution that you definitely haven't read.
Lol "creating their own class within the bourgeoisie" 😭 I bet the smug was on a milli when you typed that out
Power = authority is wild. Was freeing slaves authoritarian because the majority didn't support it?
READ THE BOOKS MOTHERFUCKER 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️
Watch out, we got a marxist ova' here!!
It's okay, I know you disagree with them.
Why do I disagree with 'them'?
You've been opposed to fundamental Marxist concepts.
Which fundamental Marxist concepts have I been opposed to?
Lmfao the one liners with no explanations or elaborations, that's how you know they're cooked
Where in that quote does it say that, to use your words, 'the state was inherently oppressive'?
While this quote does not encapsulate marx's entire view on the state, it shows that Marx sees that the state is bourgeois and therefore antagonistic to the proletariat.
Yes. The German state at the time was antagonistic to the proletariat. The Feudal state in Germany was in the process of transferring power to the bourgeoisie and that process didn't end up happening until after WW1 because the German revolution failed. The goal of the manifesto was to solidify that the new German state post revolution would be worker controlled and not controlled by the new German industrial bourgeoisie.
This quote says nothing about "The State" as a concept or entity being bourgeois, only that the state is an opressive/antagonistic force that is currently bourgeois.
If you want to try and claim that Marx said "All States are Bourgeois", you're going to need to dig a lot deeper than the Manifesto and you'll not find any consistent answer as his views on that changed throughout his life and after the revolutionary movements in Germany (Revolutions of 1848 the first failure and when the Manifesto was written), America (Civil War 1865 see The Civil War in the United States), and France (Paris Commune 1871 see The Civil War in France).
As he saw how the bourgeois power structures maintained themselves through these successive revolutions, he began to become much more clear on the role of a workers state in maintaining the revolutionary movement.
chatgpt answer if I've ever seen one.
Nice response to the content there!
Why is it a nice response to the content there?
Because it's sad that you can't respond to the content of it
“Becuase Carl Mank is whatever I say he is. Have I ever read his work? No. But I’m sure he said something similar to my position somewhere.”
I've come back to this thread like five times and this makes me crack up every time
Citing Wikipedia is not the own you think it is.
I'm not trying to own you. I'm trying to get a meaningful argument which isn't me being talked about as an animal.
I'm sorry that some comrades here have been dismissive toward you, but you seriously need to educate yourself more on a subject before you speak on it thinking that you have understood it. There are plenty of resources that the Lemmygrad community can offer you to further your knowledge about China if you leave your preconceptions at the door and come at this with some humility.
This lib refusing to educate themselves is how this whole thing started, I doubt they'll change their mind now, unless they want to prove me wrong about them.
Yeah, when i wrote that there were still fairly few substantial responses compared to mocking ones. But by now i see they've been offered plenty of good, comprehensive sources of information, and now that they're banned and can't waste as much time saying ignorant things here maybe they will have more time to read the material that they've been so helpfully provided with. Probably not though...they're probably allergic to reading as most libs are...
I was hoping they'd be sincere and honest and would actually ask "how can you support such regimes?!" honestly and earnestly, but it wasn't a question, it was smug pretending to be questioning.
I find it hilarious that I dropped multiple sources that countered what they said, but because I didn't treat it as a "gotcha" but just supplemental to what I was talking about, they didn't even notice. 100% debatebro brained.
Well, you did what you could. Can't reach everyone right away. Sometimes people need to have time to stew a bit and process new information. Sometimes it takes repeated exposure to the new ideas before they become more open to them. Which is why we should never stop explaining, even if it's frustrating.
I was very quick to start bullying them here, other people here were far more patient than I was. I think libs like this give their game away very early, and shouldn't be coddled, but mocked for their smug ignorance, I do appreciate the people dropping actual sources, I didn't make a big deal out of that because I've seen this liberal song and dance a thousand times, they demand sources, then either don't read them at all, or skim just enough to know they don't agree with them and demand "better" sources that confirm their preconceived notions. It's a waste of time trying to get them to read, but hopefully people watching the conversation read them at least.
I know I certainly do. Or let's say i try to do so whenever i have the time, even if i am already familiar with the subject. It's good to read more about a topic from a different angle that i hadn't considered before. So i am always thankful when comrades provide sources in their comments. I'm often too lazy or short on time to do the same, but i really should.