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So what the boink is Bazzite "cloud native" blah? (lemmy.world)

submitted 1 week ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

80 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Look, I'm a Debian user for 15 years, I've worked in F/OSS for a long time, can take care of myself.

But I'm always on a lookout for distros that might be good fit for other people in my non-tech vicinity, like siblings, nieces, nephews... I'm imagining some distro which is easy for gaming but can also be used for normal school, work, etc. related stuff. And yeah, also not too painful to maintain.

(Well, less painful than Windows which honestly is not a high bar nowadays... but don't listen to me, all tried in past years was to install Minecraft from the MS store... The wound is still healing.)

I have Steam Deck and I like how it works: gaming first, desktop easily accessible. But I only really use it for gaming.

So I learned about Bazzite, but from their description on their main site I'm not very wise:

The next generation of Linux gaming [Powered by Fedora and Universal Blue] Bazzite is a cloud native image built upon Fedora Atomic Desktops that brings the best of Linux gaming to all of your devices - including your favorite handheld.

Filtering out the buzzwords, "cloud native image" stands out to me, but that's weird, doesn't it mean that I'll be running my system on someone else's computer?

Funnily enough, I scrolled a bit and there's a news section with a perfectly titled article: "WTF is Cloud Native and what is all this".

But that just leads to some announcements of someone (apparently important in the community) talking about some superb community milestone and being funny about his dog. To be fair, despite the title, the announcement is not directed towards people like me, it's more towards the community, who obviously already knows.

Amongst the cruft, the most "relevant" part seems to be this:

This is the simplest definition of cloud native: One common way to linux, based around container technology. Server on any cloud provider, bare metal, a desktop, an HTPC, a handheld, and your gaming rig. It’s all the same thing, Linux.

But wait, all I want to run is a "normal" PC with a Linux distro. I don't necessarily need it to be a "traditional" distro but what I don't want is to have it running, or heavily integrated in some proprietary-ish cloud.

So how does this work? Am I missing something?

(Or are my red flags real: that all of this is just to make a lot of promises and get some VC-funding?)

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[–] [email protected] 33 points 1 week ago (10 children)

Hey there, I'm the founder of Bazzite. Just wanted to confirm that we have no interest in VC funding. It says it's cloud native because it's cloud native, not because we're marketing to people with too much money and a lack of sense.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 week ago (1 children)

It sounds like the OS is using an image like how a docker container would use an image, is that an accurate comparison?

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 week ago (2 children)

What exactly does "cloud native" mean? I've used Silverblue and I get the immutability etc, but what is the definition of "cloud native?

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago

it's really bad marketing, i had to look it up to make sure there wasn't any weird cloud shit in the distro

bazzite is now my daily driver 3 machines

[–] [email protected] 32 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (5 children)

Hi I'm the guy who posted the report. Your quote is exactly what it is, we use cloud native server tech to make Bazzite. Things like bootc, podman, OCI containers, etc.

all I want to run is a “normal” PC with a Linux distro.

That's exactly what's happening!

I don’t want is to have it running, or heavily integrated in some proprietary-ish cloud.

It does, just not ours, Valve runs that part. 😼 I'm happy to answer specific questions if you have any!

[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 week ago (7 children)

As someone who builds and deploys software in the cloud all day, seeing the term "cloud native" used for a desktop OS just reads as jibberish to me, no offense. Nobody can seem to explain clearly in simple terms what is actually meant by it.

Does it just mean all of the compilation of binaries and subsequent packaging have all been designed and set up to run in a uniform build pipeline that can be executed in the cloud? Or is bazzite just basically RancherOS (RIP) but for the desktop? I am seeing people in this thread talking along the lines of both of these things, but they are not the same.

Can you explain what the term "cloud native" means as it relates to bazzite in a way that someone who can build Linux from scratch, understands CI/CD, and uses docker/kubernetes/whatever to deploy services in the cloud, could grok the term in short order?

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[–] [email protected] -3 points 1 week ago

@netvor I guess cloud-native stands for service-provider lock-in, as their development workflow heavily relies on GitHub Actions.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I've noticed that almost everyone has missed the most "cloud-native" aspect of the Universal Blue project: The build process.

What's really cool about this is that the images are built in a "cloud-native" way. Right now, they're just using Github's actions pipeline to push images. This does a couple of very cool things.

First: It means that any image that gets sent to your device was already built on a system and checked as OK. It's still technically possible that a bad image could get pushed, but the likelihood is extremely low because they are tested as a single cohesive unit before being sent to anyone else's device.

With traditional distros packages are built on a system and tested, but they're not necessarily tested in a single common environment that is significantly similar between everyone's device. This largely deals with dependency hell, and weirder configurations that cause hard-to-diagnose problems.

Second: It also simplifies the build process for the Universal Blue team because they are able to take the existing cloud native images from fedora and just apply some simple patches on top of that. While doing this in a traditional distro way as I understand it would be far more complicated. This is why Universal Blue was able to update their images to Fedora 41 like... 24 hours after release? It was crazy fast.

The creator of Universal Blue is also on the fediverse! I don't know if this will actually ping them, but it's worth a try.

@[email protected]

[–] [email protected] 28 points 1 week ago (1 children)

"Cloud native" means in this context, that the images are being built centrally by "the cloud" (in this case, it's GitHub actions, but could be replaced by something else) and then the identical copies of the OS are distributed downstream.

Contrary to traditional package manager based distros, this is more efficient and reliable.

At least that's the mission from what I know, but I also might be wrong. Then please correct me :)

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 week ago (4 children)

That's pretty much the gist of it. They even have instructions for doing it yourself, using whatever upstream OCI image you want (including one of the uBlue projects).

BlueBuild is a spinoff project based on the same build concepts that was originally part of UniversalBlue, but they diverged completely due to eventually having a completely different scope.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 week ago

They call Bazzite cloud native because they use a lot of technology often used in the cloud, but it’s still a locally run OS with no dependence on the internet apart from getting new updates.

Unlike traditional distros, it uses flatpak for apps, comes with podman (similar to docker) if you want to use containers, and has a more robust update mechanism.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago

It's a normal atomic/immutable distro

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Ignore the buzzwords, it's just another atomic flavor with a Fedora 41 base. If you don't like it, just re-base to another flavor like kinoite. The main focus is on handhelds and gaming-rigs. They have some tools for that. That's it.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 week ago

They do a few other opinionated things, like using the fsync kernel and layering Steam rather than having people use the flatpak, but it's essentially as you say: atomic Fedora, pulling from Kinoite or Silverblue as the base before making their changes.

[–] [email protected] 49 points 1 week ago (3 children)

It used to say "container-native". They recently changed the wording, but there was no technical change.

It's a Linux distro that runs locally, like any other. It has no particular tie-in with any cloud services. If Flatpak, Docker/Podman, Distrobox, Homebrew, etc. are "cloud" just because they involve downloading packages hosted on the internet, then I don't know why you wouldn't call "traditional" package managers like apt, dnf, zypper, etc. "cloud" as well. 🤷 So yeah, I feel your confusion.

The big difference compared to something like Debian or vanilla Fedora is that Bazzite is an "immutable" distro. What this means is that the OS image is monolithic and you don't make changes directly to the system. Instead, you install apps and utilities via containers, or as a last resort you can apply a layer on top of the OS using rpm-ostree.

The only thing cloud-related about any of this is that atomic OS images and containers are more common in the server space than the desktop space.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I must have seen a dozen posts ripping into Bazzite for "cloud native". This is a dumb decision that they need to run away from.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (16 children)

Founder here, the more I see this whining the more I want to keep it on the website.

It's the accurate definition.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Thanks, I think I've already heard about this architecture, although I don't think there was any standard term for that. Maybe it's time to try one of these out one day...

It's still weird that hey would sprinkle "cloud native" all over the place just to confuse people like me. (But then again, maybe I've been living under a rock...)

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

If it matters, I've been running Bazzite on my main laptop (including gaming) for maybe 6 months now, and it's been fantastic. The whole immutable thing took a bit to get used to but now I really like it.

Nothing about it uses a cloud.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 week ago (1 children)

This same Bazzite discussion came up last week. I claimed I hadn't heard so much marketing bullshit since when everything was called Object Orientated.

There's nothing cloud about it. It's a bad marketing term.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago (2 children)

There’s nothing cloud about it. It’s a bad marketing term.

...you mean, what if ... what if the cool Linux/FOSS hackers are somehow also very bad at marketing?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I recall Jorge talking on one of the podcasts, and heard a line like (paraphrased) "You can just run your own, integrated into your own CI/CD system that you're running"

Even though I've been running Linux for a long time, I feel like suddenly got a glimpse of what normal people might feel when we try to get them to use Linux at all.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago

You know, that's probably something every Linux dev team could use: a volunteer marketing team. Devs volunteer their time, and not everyone can or wants to code, so it seems to me that there should be space made for other skillsets.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I think you nailed the first paragraph.
My comment is just to remind that OP is already running an immutable distro on the Steam deck. Valve OS is an arch based immutable distro.
Bazzite was assembled, by some very cool people, to bring the same features of the Steam deck using the already tested atomic editions of fedora to a multitude of "PCs". Saves time on managing the "Linux" system and focuses on the gaming features, apps and drivers.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago

Bazzite was assembled, by some very cool people

but then again, why these cool people keep saying things like "cloud native"... is a mystery to me...

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 week ago

Funny enough I had not fully realized this about Steam Deck myself, because I kind of made a special exception for Steam Deck to prevent myself from nerding out on it too much: this is strictly for fun!

(That's why I only changed hostname, replaced the default terminal emulator and set up Syncthing. Oh, and SSH access but that's it, I promise! :D)

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children)

I've heard Bazzite mentioned repeatedly as a popular distro for Linux gaming (and I plan to test drive it on my old laptop soneday when I get around to it). My understanding is that it's a standalone distro you can run locally, same as Debian/Arch/Ubuntu/etc. I suspect the "cloud native" marketing term in this context just means you can run the same image file in a vm, vps, bare metal, whatever.

If I'm dead wrong, hopefully my reply will be sufficiently inflammatory to trigger a correction, lol.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

I suspect the “cloud native” marketing term in this context just means you can run the same image file in a vm, vps, bare metal, whatever.

...yeah that's what makes it suspicious. Alone it can be a good thing but why rush to mention it for a fricking gaming/home distro? As if running gaming/home distro anywhere else than as close to the hardware as possible was somehow inherently normal or even good.

(The idea of cleanly separating "user user space" does sound inherently good, if achievable...)

Again, who are they marketing to?

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago

I have no idea what they mean with "cloud native". It is just important to understand the concept of immutables/atomic flavors. I struggled at first with the whole concept, coming from "classic" distros. But you get the idea very quick and after that you can enjoy a stable rig. That is my experience after 7 months with bazzite on my main machine.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I think this is very much it yes. I run bazzite on my laptop as is such basically an atomic distro. That's it

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