this post was submitted on 31 Dec 2024

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153

Android 15 sideloading restrictions are a raw deal for users (www.androidpolice.com)

submitted 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

79 comments fedilink hide all child comments

(page 2) 32 comments

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Will the permissions still be allowable by goinv to the app info page from the settings, clicking the 3 dot menu in the corner and taping to allow restricted settings?

[–] [email protected] 37 points 1 week ago (2 children)

POV: You're Google and think EU didn't fine you enough lately.

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[–] [email protected] 61 points 1 week ago (1 children)

If Google is going to turn Android into iPhone, why tf I shouldn't get an iPhone itself?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago (5 children)

If Google is going to turn Android into iPhone,

It's not. The change is definitively for the worse but still a far cry from Apple where you cannot just download an app off the internet and install it which you can even on Android 15, the permission management is just worse in such a case.

Also, surely community ROMs will probably change this.

why tf I shouldn’t get an iPhone itself?

Why TF would it be a benefit over Android? Still worse compatibility, still more expensive, still no innovation.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Android has been getting worse and worse every iteration. Are you asking me to wait until it is an identical clone of iOS?

Also, surely community ROMs will probably change this.

I don't have time or desire to fiddle with it, just like mods for Bethesda games. It should not be acceptable to shrug at enshittification and hope some volunteers fix it.

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

I don't think it's quite a bad as the title implies, though I wonder how long this slow process of locking down Android will ~~contained~~ continue for. Hopefully the EU demands from the likes of Epic will stop too much control being taken away from the user.

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[+] [email protected] -12 points 1 week ago (10 children)

I've been an Android user since the HTC Desire in 2010.

I'm unsure what the author of the article is advocating, since the "raw deal" appears to be geared towards making the Android environment more secure.

The author laments that they now have to manually enable security bypass settings and that some (they call it developers), but I'm not sure if they're referring to Application Development or Phone Platform Development) "developers" can lock down with further API checks.

I've been an ICT professional for over 40 years and security is always a balance. On the one end it looks like a phone in a locked room, inaccessible to anyone, on the other end it's a free-for-all, open to anyone.

I'm not at all sure what the author wants, except for wanting to roll back time to something less secure.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago

I’m unsure what the author of the article is advocating, since the “raw deal” appears to be geared towards making the Android environment more secure.

"These tighter security measures protect average users from malicious apps but risk alienating power users, amateur developers, modders, and enthusiasts who depend on Android's flexibility."

The author acknowledges this in literally the second sentence.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Yeah, the author and people are fussing over without reason. Regular users do not understand the implication of sideloading apps. I have had people get their telegram/whatsapp hacked because someone sent them a malicious link and they sent their login credentials to that website/app.

Restricting sensitive permissions will mean such people are better protected from such mistakes. Advanced users can still bypass the requirements even though it may be slightly complicated.

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[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 week ago (1 children)

It makes it frustrating to use, not secure. When installed program stops working after 30 or whatever days of me not using it because my great white master decided that it doesn't need what was granted by me at installation is not security it's just spitting in my face. I don't care about what "developers" want why should anyone?

[–] [email protected] 33 points 1 week ago

Users are further forced to sacrifice their privacy to Google and Google Play rather than use something like F-droid.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 week ago (1 children)

As an It professional I must disagree. Dumbing down the platform isn't good. Let's hope Magisk Deny list keeps working.

[+] [email protected] -8 points 1 week ago (10 children)

Happy to debate.

According to the article there are now more than 3 billion Android users. I have no information to the contrary.

How do you expect to attempt to secure that many devices by allowing the platform to continue as it was?

You call it dumbing down, which I understand, but how do you stop all the click-happy people from installing the next nefarious "game", when they already have little to no chance to avoid email spam and SMS scams, let alone LLM generated "custom targeted" exploits.

I get that there are users who use this (now) vanishing functionality, but are they representative of the total user base, or edge cases? Neither you nor I have any hard data on that, but I know that as an ICT professional, I'm an outlier.

I'm no friend of Google's business model, but I don't believe that they're purposefully shooting themselves in the foot,mind you, I'll concede that it has a poor track record in the past few years.

Let's progress the conversation.

How would you protect essentially computer and security illiterate users from malware in a scalable and sustainable manner?

As an aside, I'm a long term (25+ years) Linux user and have used pretty much everything since the 6502 was part of the picture. In my professional opinion we haven't begun to figure out how to do this in the desktop world, Android is so far the closest we've managed and I'm not seeing anything here (yet) that makes me see this as a mistake.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I dont really have the time to participate in what looks like an interesting debate but I have a few notes on your post.

How do you expect to attempt to secure that many devices by allowing the platform to continue as it was?

Secure what? Against what type of threat? This type of vague question results in vague answers. If the threat is social engineering I would argue not many protection would be effective beside educating the user about that.

You call it dumbing down, which I understand, but how do you stop all the click-happy people from installing the next nefarious "game", when they already have little to no chance to avoid email spam and SMS scams, let alone LLM generated "custom targeted" exploits.

You don't stop them. You ask them and show them a disclaimer when they activate sideloading and that's it. They are on their own. If the user doesn't understand the risk after (skipping) the disclaimer. That's their own fault. I don't want to be put in prison just to make sure nothing bad ever happen to me. If a user purposefully disable protections they are on their own. But they should always be able to disable them.

I get that there are users who use this (now) vanishing functionality, but are they representative of the total user base, or edge cases? Neither you nor I have any hard data on that, but I know that as an ICT professional, I'm an outlier.

This is the openness of the OG Android. Welcoming as many users as possible even if they are not your mean average user. It doesn't matter if these user are a minority. They should be able to override any security they want. As long as they have acknowledged that they understand the risk and will not sue Google for it. I don't see the problem.

I have worked on a custom ROM based on AOSP and that's the other trend that worries me. The fact that less and less of "Android" seems to go to AOSP was already a concern years ago. Google wants to close their OS to better compete with Apple. This means severing those annoying minority power users from the rest of the community.

I see a very paradoxical response from you coming from Linux. If you enjoy Linux for its openness why would you accept Google rhetoric like that is really surprising. Let users do complicated stuff on your software as long as they have signed a virtual "I AM IN DANGER" form that's OK. If you remove these advanced settings features anyway then it's not for the user, it's a PR move to protect the perception of your software.

Sorry if this comment seems a bit aggressive. In my opinion you are arguing for Android to slowly transform into IOS and ad someone working on Linux for decades, this is very weird.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

It appears that you think that I'm holding contradictory opinions. It's possible.

The "ICT aware" population is not what I'm concerned about and whilst that likely excludes both of us, it's the retired widow who needs a phone to track her diary and call an ambulance, it's the pig farmer who uses 123456789 as their email password and uses internet banking to pay his employees, it's the impatient mother of three who is running between venues to get her kids to drama, soccer and music lessons.

I have made house calls to these actual people and hundreds more who do not, will not, cannot, read warnings. They simply don't have the context to understand their severity. They don't understand why a camera has no requirement to read your address book or connect to the internet. They don't understand what a calculator needs to keep your screen on, or not. They "don't have anything to hide" and have no understanding how their address book and diary can be used to defraud them of their life savings.

I've spent a lifetime educating people like this. It's a drop in the ocean and all that happens is I'm pissing in the wind getting wet.

Is locking down Android helpful for you and I, perhaps not. But if I don't get a phonecall in the middle of the night because one of my clients just lost their life savings because their phone got "hacked", I'm a happy little vegimite.

Linux isn't ready for prime time because novice users have no chance to just do simple stuff like plug in a phone, download a video and tweak it, let alone open a spreadsheet or make a Christmas card and print it out.

You and I can do this, my partner cannot.

Another way to look at this is a 30 year academic with Mac and Windows experience who cannot figure out how to migrate to Linux.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Usually as an IT professional people assume I lost touch with the average people abilities with technology. I'm used to that by now.

I understand very well most people want a phone to be simple and easy to use.

This is not a justification to remove this advanced options for power users. None of the user you mention in your post will ever activate sideloading. This is just an option for that minority of people.

Android is not much more complicated to use than IOS if you stick to basic use; social networks, taking pics, picking up calls. That's it.

You can do all of that without ever knowing about sideloading or advanced permissions and so on.

So thank you but I'm with well aware I shouldn't use my perception of Android as the norm. But I'll definitely say that the average user literally doesn't ever go in those advanced settings so whether they exist or not doesn't matter to them. But out of openness I think it's important the power users can still have this OPTION available.

Also if you really want a simple phone and super easy to use. Get them an IPhone and call it a day it's simple as that. Obviously if you can't afford one then Android should still be fine anyway.

Somehow I doubt any less technology enthusiastic person would favor an Android phone over an Apple one to then complain that there is too many options available in the settings.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I don't think anyone is advocating turning off the side loading features, unless I missed something, but the complaints here appear that you have to do extra work to bypass security, which is not something I understand.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 week ago

The assumption I think is that Google ask for more and more work to use that feature. So you can either shrug it off or prepare for Google to remove this ability entirely.

I guess we will see.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

You call it dumbing down, which I understand, but how do you stop all the click-happy people from installing the next nefarious “game”, when they already have little to no chance to avoid email spam and SMS scams, let alone LLM generated “custom targeted” exploits.

That's the neat Part, you don't

Their choice, their consequences. There are enough warnings on the way there, they are free people and were informed about the risks

As an aside, I’m a long term (25+ years) Linux user and have used pretty much everything since the 6502 was part of the picture. In my professional opinion we haven’t begun to figure out how to do this in the desktop world

App Distribution via Flatpaks and Immutable OS are already pretty much there. Did you try a recent Fedora Version?

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Somehow No One needs that much Holding Hand or "Security" on the Computer, where No revenue streams of Google/Apple are affected

[+] [email protected] -20 points 1 week ago (1 children)

You have a very distorted view of security. The Apple computer ecosystem closely mirrors their phone and tablet system.

Microsoft Windows is an absolute shitshow and continues to get worse at every iteration.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

I can Install on a Mac without any Roadblocks another Operating System, and I can Install Apps without the need for a Developer Account or a certificate unrestricted.

Otherwise I'm using GNU/Linux which also doesn't try to "protect" me in the interest of some Corporation

[+] [email protected] -6 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Actually, no you cannot. You need to adjust and grant permissions for anything you install on a Mac OS system today.

Source: I own a Mac, it's less than six months old. Installing stuff is full of permission requests.

As for Linux, I've used and installed it for over 25 years. It's not ready for 3 billion home users and at the rate it's going, it won't ever get there.

Yes, I know, Android is Linux, well done, here's an elephant stamp.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago

Of course you can Install Asahi Linux on a modern Mac, and you can Sideload Apps too. Both Things which are Not possible on iOS without Major Roadblocks

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago

I've also been using Linux for a similar amount of time, and it's only at work now I have to use Windows.

And as for home users using Linux? I have a few family members quite happy with Ubuntu / Firefox since all they need is a browser and VLC for their "PC", so I don't know where you got that "it'll never get there" metric from.

Alright they don't have a clue how Jellyfin works on that box, but they sure do appreciate and use it a lot these days now they've got used to it / dumping Netflix.

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[–] [email protected] 40 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

As someone who's always been side loading apps and doing custom configs, it's just so much harder compared to what it used to be. So many hidden settings. So many menus you have to go through in the right order. So many reverts that happen each update.

You say it's in the name of security, but I don't see it. Something is fundamentally broken here, if Google really believes this is the best path forward

Edit: and btw, I work in big tech too. I know how this update came to be. Some L6 looking for his packet decided to "decrease infected devices by 10%" by adding this friction, and everyone nodded along since the negative impact isn't measurable.

[–] [email protected] 66 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Ultimately, the user should be able to decide for themselves how much security they are willing to compromise for power and flexibility. Whether this particular compromise is acceptable would depend on just how annoying it is in practice, but it's a trend I'm not a fan of.

On the plus side, if this compromises third party app store usage even more, it may be more fuel for the anti-trust lawsuits aimed at Google (although who knows how that will play out given who is becoming president).

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