The power and character of a Socialist system.
this post was submitted on 03 Dec 2024
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I guess that it's not death penalty if she fan ay for it. The only way you can scare these criminals is this
This thread in a nutshell:
I'm against the death penalty, but/except/unless...
Well, then you're not against it, are you? People who are pro death penalty also have their limits from which point forward they believe death penalty to be justifiable. If you have an exception, you are pro-death penalty.
And to all the "revolutionaries" in these comments:
My Disillusionment in Russia, by Emma Goldman (Afterword):
There is no greater fallacy than the belief that aims and purposes are one thing, while methods and tactics are another. (...) All human experience teaches that methods and means cannot be separated from the ultimate aim. The means employed become, through individual habit and social practice, part and parcel of the final purpose; they influence it, modify it, and presently the aims and means become identical. (...) Psychologically and socially the means necessarily influence and alter the aims. (...)
No revolution can ever succeed as a factor of liberation unless the MEANS used to further it be identical in spirit and tendency with the PURPOSES to be achieved. (...) It is the herald of NEW VALUES, ushering in a transformation of the basic relations of man to man, and of man to society. It is not a mere reformer, patching up some social evils; not a mere changer of forms and institutions; not only a re-distributor of social well-being. It is all that, yet more, much more. (...)
To-day is the parent of to-morrow. The present casts its shadow far into the future. That is the law of life, individual and social. Revolution that divests itself of ethical values thereby lays the foundation of injustice, deceit, and oppression for the future society. The means used to prepare the future become its cornerstone.
If you are a leftist that imagines/wishes a future with no government oppression, sponsored killing, and violence; and if you claim to be pro rehabilitation instead of punishment, you should not be celebrating capital punishment.
Any Communist knows that this future is not possible until money is no longer a necessity. As long as money exists, there will be those that exploit it to control and oppress those with less than. Capital punishment is necessary to end this exploitation. That being said, they're giving her a choice, pay back $9 billion or die. Pretty simple. She has an opportunity to not die.
Any Communist knows that this future is not possible until money is no longer a necessity.
We make money a necessity, and so no, "any communist" doesn't know that because it isn't true. You clearly have a very limited and ignorant view of communism and communists. The person I quoted was an anarchist-communist, and I feel like "any communist" should know that.
That being said, they’re giving her a choice, pay back $9 billion or die. Pretty simple. She has an opportunity to not die.
Unless I'm missing something: they are the state, they can just seize her assets and put her in prison, there's no reason for killing.
She probably has her assets tied up in foreign banks where the state can't access it. Anarchists are dumb and only useful for revolutionary purposes. Once revolutions end, so must the anarchist. Currency is a necessity because there is not enough material abundance to not need it. All the shit jobs that no one wants to do needs to be automated before we can remove money. This is the dream that Marx had for Communism. If you don't understand the basic foundation for achieving a true Communist society, then you are not educated enough to speak on the subject.
Kim Il-Sung tried demonetization prematurely from the dprk and it ended horribly. You cannot advance society into a Communist state without making the proper technological and material advancement necessary to support it. But you anarchists want to live in hippie communes and sing songs instead of advancing society. Marx did not advocate for a reverting back to tribal society, but a necessary progression from capitalism to socialism and eventually communism.
Tell me about your view on abortion. Not okay from conception or okay until 18 years of age? What a bullshit false dichotomy. It is possible to say I support something to this point. That doesn’t make you pro this or anti that. Nuance does exist.
It's not called a false dichotomy; it's called taking a firm stance, and speaking the language properly and clearly.
Pro-lifers think abortion is bad at any point; pro-~~lifers~~ choicers are people who think abortion is okay to a certain point. People who are pro capital punishment only want it in certain scenarios; people who are anti capital punishment don't want it at all.
If you say you are "pro capital punishment in certain scenarios", then you support the death sentence; end of. Saying you're "anti but (...)" is like saying "I'm anti-abortion/pro-life except for the first 3 months or in special circumstances".
That doesn’t make you pro this or anti that.
Then don't claim to be anti this or that when you're not? I was quite specific in that I was talking to people who say they are "anti" when they are not.
You can say “I’m anti x except in y circumstance.” You just can. You saying this prevents you from being anti that thing is just foolish in my view. Saying I’m anti abortion or anti choice in some cases are both things that can be both said and believed. That’s the point.
And to say that one is either absolutely anti or not anti at all is a false dichotomy. It is possible to be anti anything to some extent along a gradient.
To be clear, I’m against capital punishment on the grounds that governments regularly convict innocent people. But I also don’t think the law should protect people with some amount of wealth.
But I also don’t think the law should protect people with some amount of wealth.
Well, what's "some amount of wealth"? We all have some amount of it. At what point is it okay to take someone's life because of it? I don't think that's very different from saying "I think we should use capital punishment on murderers". One of the reasons I oppose capital punishment is also because government convict innocent people; but another is that I think people can be rehabilitated, and I believe that both for murderers and people with wealth.
I say the wealth bit with tongue in cheek, but I mean as some function of wealth distribution or gdp. There is some amount of wealth that is too much and really hurts society to be hoarded. I agree with you though and share your views on the points you made.
Did they mention abortion before the edit?
Leftist with lofty goals still have to settle - This is the real world, and far from an idealized utopia. We can step into the light while still recognizing we're walking in the shade. Pro-rehabilitation folks still can believe that not all people can be rehabilitated. Capital punishment may sometimes be the only fitting remedy for civilization, if not just for the punished. There will always be evil in the world who aren't capable of rehabilitation without some form of violence and punishment - Some crimes and criminals are beyond what the sane and just can fathom.
Pro-rehabilitation folks still can believe that not all people can be rehabilitated.
If we were talking hypotheticals I might agree, but like you said this is the real world and a question remains: who decides who is incapable of rehabilitation? People who have committed murder (which I personally would classify as the worst type of crime - taking away someone's entire life) have been rehabilitated before, and completely changed their lives and become productive members of society. Plus, the same goal could be achieved with permanent incarceration, and at least then they have a chance of being released if we ever find there was a miscarriage of justice.
Some crimes and criminals are beyond what the sane and just can fathom.
But who gets to decide who that? Who are the "sane and just" who will draw the line? In Texas, USA, the "sane and just" decided you should get the death penalty if you murder a "peace officer". And off course by "peace officer" we know they mean the type of people who kill children and people's dogs; but if anyone were to kill one in self-defence a court would probably still convict them of murder.
Any fans of George Carlin here? Remember his bit about the death penalty saying that he would rather have it be done not to poor violent criminals like gangsters and common idiotic murderers, but would rather have it done to the people who really and truly fear death... like major league white collar criminals.
Gang members live violent lives and often don't have optimistic views for the future, so they know that any day might be their last. A wealthy ass failson of super millionaires who prides himself on fucking over thousands of people every day and is almost pleased to see lawsuits coming in for stolen wages and sexual harassment, however, is confident that they will die free and wealthy and probably have some active organizations named after them.
So the death penalty for them, especially when are forced to spend their time awaiting it in some cold, damp and dirty cell with prison guards who were born in poverty and treat them no differently than some poor drug-addicted shoplifter, is a terrifying concept. Also what needs to happen is that ALL their assets are confiscated. I mean ALL of them. No loopholes for transferring that shit overseas or 'technically it's in my wife's/Son's name' bullshit. They get nothing. Their family gets nothing and will be, at best, a middle class family with middle class prospects going forward (no more failsons from that lineage).
This would be the best punishment for any billionaire. They die, get buried in a potter's field or prison graveyard like common thugs, and their legacies smashed.
I think this case is closely watched by the elites who it may concern. Especially the social reaction. I am waiting for them to spin it like "Communist Dictatorship Vietnam" in conservative media (if it gains mainstream traction).
In all honesty, the enlightenment revolutions of the 18th and 19th centuries needed to bring this change about. To hold the wealthy to much higher standards than the poor. If that did happen, we wouldn't be living in the capitalist hellscape that is today.
There is already a concept from french nobility about that... Didn't prevent their head to roll in the end
If they're willing to not kill this person, then don't, she's no use to anyone dead. Confiscate everything she has, and garnish all her future earnings. How can she pay her debt if they kill her?
To send a message that you do not fuck with millions of people.
The death penalty as deterence doesn't work if your intended group are impoverished, desperate people, but I am confident that it will work if it is the super rich. Historically only the poor where executed for stealing stuff, the wealthy had safeguards for their modes of theft. This needs to be fully reversed.
It doesn't act as a deterant. Many studies back this up. Your confidance is mispleced and simply reflects your violent personality.
For wealthy people who are deliberately and calculatedly doing their shit I guarantee you it will be.
Edit: the studies that you are referring to aren't referring to that type of perp.
It doesn't act as a deterrent due to the crimes it's used as a punishment for - no punishment stops a mentally Ill serial killer, someone in mindless rage acting on impulse, or someone who is certain they will never get caught. The studies all agree with that.
But if you would get sentences to life in prison or death from a parking violation or not paying your taxes, there would be zero people doing them as both are conscious actions, and definitely not worth the risk.
Justice is supposed to make the victims whole. Calling for execution for financial crimes helps no one and gives the ruling class, the state or government, more precedent to do it to others.
How does putting someone in jail or having them pay a fine to the government help "make the victims whole" any more than the death sentence would? If that was the point of the justice system, we would only have payments of wealth or services from criminals to victims and nothing else. In fact, I can think of quite a few crimes where the victims would love nothing more than the permission get to kill the criminal themselves in the most painful way possible.
The number one priority of a justice system is to prevent crimes from happening in the first place - a task it has to constantly balance with freedom and human rights as the ultimate solution is to get rid of all criminals - and the more it wants to prevent a certain type of crime, the harsher the punishment for it should be. But as I said, usually the death penalty is used for crimes done by people who aren't thinking about the consequences.
If you use it as the threat for financial crime, soon you will have no more victims of financial crime, as the criminals are all either dead or too afraid to do it.
Should it be used, for that or in the first place, that's a completely different argument all together.
You got it. If this person committed fraud they owe damages to the victims of the fraud, not the government. If the government spills this persons blood on the street, what do you get? The only thing that happens is that the punishment for fraud is now death. Do you honestly believe it will stop here? What about the fraudster that commits $100 million worth of fraud? Should they be executed too? What about $10,000? When you apply capital punishment to civil crimes, the application can only ever be arbitrary and unjust.
If the government spills this persons blood on the street, what do you get? The only thing that happens is that the punishment for fraud is now death.
For this single case in an isolated vacuum, sure.
Outside that you'd get no more fraud, and no more future fraud victims, because the punishment for it wouldn't be worth the risk for anyone to try.
Like I said, if the punishment for a parking violation was death, every single driver would make damn sure they would never, ever get one. Apply that for every "deliberate" crime and you end up with a society with essentially zero crime.
Also a lot fewer people alive, but zero crime.
Where the line goes is completely up to the justice system, how badly they want to prevent that type of crime, as it goes with every crime and punishment.
Very cool
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