this post was submitted on 19 Nov 2024
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[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 hours ago (36 children)

So many incredibly stupid takes in comments. This is not a game. This is not a fucking Netflix special. The escalation ladder is so easy to go up, but so hard to climb down. This is a terrifying development.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

Completely unrelated question: how hard does one have to rattle a sabre before it snaps the blade?

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 13 hours ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 0 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago)

In a parallel universe, I would like to witness an official sarcastic response.

'U.S. eager to witness Russia's awesome destructive power in person after Oppenhiemer success. Government announces free UV glasses for safe viewing. Populace hopeful for a swift end to capitalism after nuclear winter'

[–] [email protected] -1 points 14 hours ago (2 children)

~~China's~~ Russia's Final Warning

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 hours ago
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[–] [email protected] -4 points 14 hours ago

Honestly I just find it laughable. 1, because there are more nuclear red lines behinds us than I care to count. And 2, if the last Russian missile test is anything to go by, I'm more worried about a giant chain reaction blowing up all of Russia.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 15 hours ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 4 points 14 hours ago (3 children)

Almost 25 years of that attitude from the US is how this war started in the first place[1], and now hundreds of thousands are dead or injured and millions are displaced.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

Every recrimination has an equal and opposite recrimination. In the end, we are where we are and every country chooses how to play their own hand by themselves.

Russian leadership knew what they were doing when they attacked a foreign sovereign country in an act overt aggression.

I’m sure there are plenty of rationalizations they tell themselves, but it’s not the US that “started this” in any meaningful way.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 14 hours ago

You will find that the actual cause for the dead, injured, and displaced, is that Russia invaded Ukraine.

The simplest fix would be for the Russians to go home.

The more permanent fix would be for the Russians to go home, and have Vladimir Putin accidentally fall out of a window very high up. That would be reasonable, given how many men he basically threw into a meat grinder.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

“Spokesperson, issue more empty threats! Surely this time they will finally take me seriously!”

[–] [email protected] -1 points 13 hours ago (2 children)

You’d think the West would have taken it seriously after Crimea was annexed. But even after losing most of Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia, and Kherson, there are still imperial core labor aristocrat clowns like you, still failing to read the room.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 13 hours ago

What’s the room saying, comrade?

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[–] [email protected] -5 points 16 hours ago (2 children)

Biden using his last few months to start ww3

[–] [email protected] 20 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago) (6 children)

If Russia starts nuking shit, wouldn’t Russia be starting ww3?

Or are we supposed to just accept the implication that only western countries have agency?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 hours ago

Behold the power of western intellect.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 15 hours ago

Do you understand how WWI became a world war? When two countries had a conflict between them, a network of alliances caused others countries to become parties to the conflict. That's exactly what's happening here.

The US, through NATO, was deploying lethal capabilities in Ukraine. Russia determined that this was strategically threatening its security, a position that it has held for 30 years and has been acknowledged by US leaders, diplomats, and generals, as well as world leaders and even the leaders of NATO. Russia launched a conflict with Ukraine, and Ukraine only, in order to address its security concern.

If the USA enters the war, unprovoked by Russia, then it would be the USA starting WW3, just like in WW1 a conflict between two countries expanded to include uninvolved parties when they made themselves involved. The problem with the ATACMS is that it requires US/NATO to operate. Within the borders of Ukraine, that means that US forces are killing Russian soldiers in Ukranian territory. While problematic, Russia has only escalated its rhetoric based on this involvement. However, if US/NATO troops were to use ATACMS to strike Russian targets on Russian territory, that would be an act of war against Russia which would require a response. In this way, the US would expanding the war beyond the conflict of Ukraine and Russia to now be Ukraine, Russia, and the US - an escalation to world war.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 15 hours ago

I doubt Russia will actually use nukes, what with MAD and all.

Then again, people said the same thing about the invasion. Russia doesn't have a no-first-use nuclear weapons policy like the USSR did, so they could use them if they deem the country to be under existential threat.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 15 hours ago (2 children)

This is clearly a response to the US allowing strikes inside Russia.

Interesting timing to do that when Ukraine, Germany and Russia have been gearing up to negotiate an end to the war next year. Wonder if this is to give the west more leverage in the negotiations or to escalate to give the republican admin next year a tougher time.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

So you're saying Russia has never struck inside Ukraine. Or somehow The US started the war in Ukraine.

Or is it just a freaking stupid idea that one nation can attack another. And expect them not to retaliate.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

None of these are valid concepts. The reality is that Russia is in a conflict with Ukraine. Activating alliances brings those other countries into the conflict, which is exactly how WW1 became a world war. The USA has nothing to do with this conflict (except the entire casus belli, but let's go with your position). If the US was neutral, Ukraine would lose and Russia and Ukraine would negotiate a security arrangement to prevent further conflict.

But the US has supplied Ukraine with the equivalent of the entire Russian military budget 3 years in a row. Ukraine keeps fighting exclusively because of US support. But, that has been limited to the borders of Ukraine, which creates sufficient ambiguity that only allows Russia to escalate rhetoric. As soon as the US's involvement creates the conditions for strikes on Russian territory, now the USA is a participant in attacks against Russia, making it an escalatory move on the USA's part. The USA could just stay out of it and this whole thing will resolve itself with far fewer deaths and far less destruction.

[–] [email protected] -5 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

Accept, Russia broke international law when it attacked Ukraine. As it broke its own treaties to respect 1996 borders in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nukes.

So nope. Also, the only reason Ukraine is not a part of NATO. Is that same treaty where they agreed not to join.

So anyway, you try to argue this. If Russia is the first to launch nukes. They started WW3.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 12 hours ago (2 children)

Uhh, that's completely illogical. Yes, Russia broke international law by invading a country. That's true. That does not give the USA the right to attack Russian territory. That's not actually how international law works.

There are lots of reasons Ukraine isn't part of NATO. The first one is that Ukraine made a political commitment with Russia to remain neutral. The second is that Russia made it clear that Ukrainian neutrality was to be respected by NATO allies. The third is that the USA knew how dangerous it would be to bring Ukraine in so they worked on every other former Soviet Republic first. The fourth is that the NATO allies don't all agree on bringing Ukraine in. And the fifth is that NATO policy forbids admitting a country in an active border dispute.

You can say that nukes make it WW3, but that's just vibes. World war is when a war between 2 countries expands to include more countries. Right now, the war is between Russia and Ukraine. If the USA gets involved, then the USA is escalating to world wars. Your vibes are not the standard.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

"That does not give the USA the right to attack Russian territory." What? There is no chance of this.... No one is even suggesting it. Seriously touch grass

[–] [email protected] 6 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

There is no chance of the USA attacking Russian territory? Really? The USA has trainers, weapons, supply chains, recon, targeting intelligence, all confirmed on the ground on the ground in Ukraine and likely multiple unconfirmed capabilities on the ground as well. There is ABSOLUTELY a large chance of the USA attacking Russian territory.

ATACMS are USA weapons, that require USA training and often USA/NATO operators to function, USA personnel for maintenance and repair, etc. Each incremental escalation brings us closer to USA actors pulling a trigger to hit a target in Russian sovereign territory. The USA is salami slicing right now, and Russia is 100% correct to call it out, take preventative action, and prepare for escalation.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

"There is no chance of the USA attacking Russian territory? Really?" yes, exactly. Unless Iran is attacking Ukrainian territory. Seriously, this is complete bollocks. "The USA is salami..." And yet it is Russia who is attacking other countries and annexing territory... not the US. You are really full of shit here.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 hours ago (4 children)

Yeah. You're not paying attention. No one is disputing that Russia invaded Ukraine. Invading Ukraine is not a cassus belli for the USA. They don't have any standing to enter the war, but they are salami slicing their way to direct involvement. Again, they have boots on the ground in Ukraine already and they are heavily involved in the conflict. This particular move, to use ATACMS on Russian territory is, in fact, an escalation towards greater risk of US direct involvement.

The only one full of shit is the person who thinks Russia invading Ukraine justifies any and every action the USA chooses to take.

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[–] [email protected] -4 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

Russia can fuck off with its definition of neutrality. Russia was absolutely fine when pre-maidan Ukrainian “government” wanted more integration with Russia. Russia’s neutrality definition is submission to Russia’s will. And BTW, NATO was never a goal until Ukraine got attacked. Ukraine wanted economic integration with west.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

Russia was absolutely fine when pre-maidan Ukrainian “government” wanted more integration with Russia.

You mean the democratically elected government, which was replaced by a US-backed coup “government”[1]?

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Interesting timing to do that when Ukraine, Germany and Russia have been gearing up to negotiate an end to the war next year

Threatening nuclear war under these circumstances is definitely an interesting timing.

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