this post was submitted on 17 Jun 2024
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Firefox

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (13 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

The biggest problem with the alternative browsers I wanted to use is, that they are not managed by my distribution (repository).

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

What distribution are you using? Every distro I've tried, even the more obscure ones (alpine, void, openbsd), package most of the webkit/webengine browsers.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago (2 children)

EndevourOS, based on Archlinux. I was looking into forks of Firefox. For a webbrowser, it should be in the repository (not AUR) and it should be as quickly updated as Firefox itself. None of the forks I looked into match this criteria.

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Advertising can't be privacy preserving. What gives advertisement value is the fact that it's targeted.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 5 months ago (5 children)

Advertising signs next to a road are both targeted and privacy respecting, just like radio/tv.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago

bad cop worse cop

[–] [email protected] 11 points 5 months ago (1 children)

This is why i am not giving another penny to Mozilla ever again

[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 months ago (1 children)

i really wish i could donate to just firefox and not mozilla, I just want firefox to be better and not to spend money on all these weird things.

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[–] [email protected] 53 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (7 children)

This sounds a whole lot like privacy sandbox.
You know, Google Topics.
The thing nobody wanted.

And honestly, reading through the article here, I don't see many ways that it'll be much better. If advertisements are matched on your local machine, then data is still being amalgamated somewhere. This is similar to Google Topics and Microsoft Recall, two things people complain about. For good reason.

The online advertising industry is undergoing a significant transformation. With growing consumer concerns and increasing scrutiny from regulators, it’s evident that current data practices are excessive and unsustainable.

It's strange that Mozilla, a company that constantly positions itself as the ethical alternative to big tech, is saying "companies are being mandated out of unethical advertising."

Secure Environment: Data sets are matched in a highly secure environment

Without any further information, this means so very little. Is it done locally? On their servers? Who knows.

By combining Mozilla’s scale and trusted reputation with Anonym’s cutting-edge technology, we can enhance user privacy and advertising effectiveness, leveling the playing field for all stakeholders.

When advertising is the business, your attention is the product. Maybe I'm being too unkind to Mozilla here, but it's their press release and they can be as specific as they choose.

Anonym was founded with two core beliefs: First, that people have a fundamental right to privacy in online interactions...

This is the sort of meaningless fluff that you see at the front of every privacy policy, including that of the most invasive companies.

... and second, that digital advertising is critical for the sustainability of free content, services and experiences.

That's the only way to offer free services?! What about donation-based models? Maybe Mozilla could have set up something like what Brave has, except not based around a sketchy cryptocurrency.

In fact, GNU Taler exists for this very purpose.

Anonym was founded in 2022 by former Meta executives

Meta. The company known for loving user privacy.

I was hoping Mozilla would finally shut up about putting AI into everything, but in retrospect, maybe they should go back to that.


I'm reading through the Anonymco privacy policy. Some standouts:

We collect... IP address, social media user names, passwords and other security information,

Passwords?!

...your browsing and click history, including information about how you navigate within our Site and Services...

...We collect and verify resumes, employment eligibility, education, and employment history from job applicants. This includes information about your skills and qualifications for the position....

Okay, great, they know how employable you are

We may disclose Personal Information and any other information about you to government or law enforcement officials or private parties... to prevent or stop any illegal, unethical, or legally actionable activity...

They are leaving the door open to disclose your data to private mercenaries to prevent... Pre-crime, I think.

We use Google Analytics on the Site and Services to analyze how users use the Site and Services, and to provide advertisements to you on other websites.

THEY USE GOOGLE ON YOUR DATA.

This really sounds like Mozilla snapped up the first company with the right buzzwords that they could find, rather than looking for the best one. It sounds like a repeat of the OneRep privacy disaster, when they partnered with a corporation that sold people's data and used their ownership of it to basically demand ransom payments for its removal.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Passwords?!

Yeah, that and usernames are a big nope from me.

I'm not opposed to the idea of privacy-oriented advertising, but it needs to be:

  • local only - no service, including Mozilla, can correlate me to ads being shown; advertisers and Mozilla can only know broad stats
  • opt-in - ideally it would replace ads on websites, not add ads, and ad-block should continue to be effective; I'm willing to disable ad-block if a site opts-in to privacy-friendly ads (my concern is tracking, I don't mind them getting paid)
  • auditable - I should be able to see why certain ads are being shown, and verify that none of that metadata leaves my computer

THEY USE GOOGLE ON YOUR DATA.

Again, big nope from me. I hope Mozilla significantly changes how they operate and only uses their talent to build something actually privacy-focused. That's a pretty big ask, so I'm not optimistic.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 months ago (1 children)

My hopes are not high. Right before FakeSpot got bought out by Mozilla, they changed their privacy policy to add a "we will sell your data if we get bought out" clause.

(As a Mozilla product now, FakeSpot still retains private data and the right to sell it to advertising companies. So, at least to me, Mozilla has been an adtech company since 2023.)

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago (2 children)

They at least have good ad-block support, so I'll continue using them as long as there's nothing better. I've switched my mobile browser to Mull, and I'll switch my desktop browser to Mullvad Browser if I need to (it's not in my Linux distro's repos, and I'm lazy).

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago

LibreWolf is pretty good too. It's less like Tor than Mullvad Browser is, at least out of the box.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 5 months ago

It's so much worse than I thought, and I already hated it.

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[–] [email protected] 34 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I am a little disgusted by this because now both major browser engines are being developed by an advertising company, creating more incentives for future web technologies that strengthen tracking and undermine ad blocking.

From what I understand, this is an anonymized targeted ad company. In other words, ads are still targeted to the individual user, it is just harder for the advertiser to track (or profile) an individual user. Are there any companies still doing untargeted ads, ads where the advertiser might pick what site their ad goes on but cannot target a specific user demographic?

[–] [email protected] 15 points 5 months ago

That's a really good point. I hadn't put it together that all browsers are now advertising companies

I think the closest we currently see, are video sponsorships on platforms like YouTube, where the creator just reads an advertisement for their audience. If you see the video you see the ad read it's not tailored at all. That is not individually targeted, but they're definitely choosing the show based on the demographics the show has.

[–] [email protected] 59 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I said this in the other thread but it bears repeating.

Data-driven marketing and privacy are diametrically opposed.

If I want to advertise to pregnant teenagers looking at bus tickets, even if I have something helpful to say, that is a huge privacy violation to those people. And even if you say, I can't see who's being advertised to, I can see who clicks on the ads, even accidentally. Now I know a whole lot about them

[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 months ago (5 children)

I can see who clicks on the ads

Any privacy-focused advertisement program needs to prevent this. Clicking on privacy-oriented ads should be handled locally and anonymous statistics sent to Mozilla for revenue collection. There should be zero way to connect my identity with any interaction with ads.

If they can manage that, I'll disable my ad-blocking on those sites that opt-in. But I'm not giving up any of my metadata. My metadata stays on my machine, so if they want to advertise to me, they need to abide by that.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I'm not sure how that's physically possible. Any data-driven marketing strategy that results in clicks, somebody just makes a very narrow campaign and then measures the clicks. Anybody who clicks matches the data targeting.

If the goal is to drive clicks, and not just like expose you to a logo passively, I don't see how it's physically possible to do anything else

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Like this:

  1. Mozilla runs some algorithm to categorize browsing history
  2. Advertisers send an ad compaign to Mozilla targeting certain categories
  3. Firefox downloads those campaigns regularly and notifies websites that the client has opted-in to local ads
  4. Website doesn't display ads, and Firefox replaces ad areas with locally-driven ads
  5. Any clicks/views are recorded locally and reported periodically to Mozilla in an anonymized fashion (e.g. distribution of categories among views and clicks, distribution across domains, etc); clicks open in a new tab with no tracking other than the ad image that was clicked (e.g. if it was a product, the server can redirect to that product page)
  6. Mozilla bills advertisers using click and view stats; advertisers only get summarized, aggregated data

That's what I thought Brave was promising, and that's what I hope Mozilla is planning. I doubt Mozilla will deliver, but hope springs eternal. If anyone can do it, it's Mozilla, I just doubt they will.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (5 children)

5 is the problem. If you click through to anything, the person who gets the clicks knows what campaign you came from.

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[–] [email protected] 24 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

Anonym was founded in 2022 by former Meta executives [...]. The company was backed by [various venture capital corporations and multiple] strategic individual investors.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago

Oh god fucking dammit how the blue fuck does Mozilla still think they can partner with sheisty-assed third parties and think we won't run that shit down?

[–] [email protected] 14 points 5 months ago (3 children)

For maximum humor, run the bullshit.js bookmarklet.

https://mourner.github.io/bullshit.js/

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago

Wow, lots of red on that page using that bookmarklet...

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 months ago
[–] [email protected] 24 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I wonder if the process is open source or we just take their word that it's privacy preserving. Anyway, privacy is not the only problem with online advertising, so I'm not going to give up adblocking any time soon.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 5 months ago

It's just an advertising company that knows to throw in some buzzwords.

[–] [email protected] 72 points 5 months ago (1 children)

i don't wanna see another ad on the web in my life, so i'll just keep on using ublock.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Yeah pretty much. The privacy invasion of ad companies is terrible for sure, but the whole seeing ads all over the damn place in the first place is also annoying enough that even if they were somehow completely tracker-free I would still block them.

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