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My favorite argument is that I was given access to Super God when I a child. Which gives me access to Super Heaven when I die. It's waaaaay better that regular heaven. You keep praying to regular god or whatever, you mud dwelling peasant. I'll be looking down on you from Super Heaven and laughing for Extra Eternity.
Ah yes, the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, reserved only for married (m-f) Mormons, where polygamy is allowed but only for men to have multiple wives, not vice versa.
Much better than those telestial peasants. Muahaha
Eternity just seems like so much work, when can I just die?
but have your tried Extra Eternity for Men?
The Order of the Stick pointed out that the ability to hyper focus gets stuck at 11 for the dead. The main character spent about 6-8 months dead and didn't notice until 4 months had passed. No need to sleep, eat, or use the restroom makes time pass unnoticed.
When you realize that the Mormon church is a business it makes more sense.
When you realize that the ~~Mormon~~ church is a business it makes more sense.
The church is a business the way 99% of jobs being equivalent to slavery.
Note that slavery was abolished in 1865 and the civil rights movement started in 1950s-1960s.
And in 1978 mormon god said that black men can have the priesthood which is mormon god's way of saying black men are treated as equals now. (Women, regardless of race, never were treated equally and still aren't).
The Mormon church likes to celebrate the fact that black men are treated equally but they never mention that this was 110 years after slavery was abolished and still ~3 decades after the civil rights movement started. Mormon God sure has great timing.
But polygamy is actually still alive and well in the Mormon church, and i mean the actual Mormon church and not an offshoot. The Mormons stopped practicing polygamy outright but it is still alive in how they actually treat marriage.
Under mormonism they marry you for eternity. Except if your spouse wants a divorce or they die then you are no longer married from a civil law perspective. If a woman wants to get married again then she needs to have special permission from the Mormon prophet which i believe they do to release her from the Mormon eternal sealing. To do this they also try to get the ex-husbands approval (and too bad if he's dead). Where this gets interesting is that if the husband wants to remarry then he can. No strings attached. He can have as many eternal sealings as he wants. No permission needed from the prophet or wife. Just can have only one civil marriage at a time but if you get a civil divorce then a man can easily get another eternal marriage and a woman cannot. Basically this means that Mormons are letting men practice polygamy in the afterlife. It's wild.
But this just one example of how women aren't treated equally in the Mormon church. And don't get me started on LGBTQIA+. But if you ever hear someone say mormonism likes the the gays they are gaslighting you. They believe that being gay is a sin and you can only be accepted at arm's reach if you're gay, but never do anything gay, and conform to your gender. Telling someone you accept them while believing part of them they can't change is a sin is Olympic level mental gymnastics. But welcome to Mormonism!
But if you ever hear someone say mormonism likes the the gays they are gaslighting you.
There are a lot of members that don't agree with the church's approach to the LGBTQIA+ community. They hope to change things from within and don't always leave because they hold out hope things will change. Not all mormons are the fuckin mindless whack jobs, though there are plenty of those around. Plenty are really normal people and they disagree with the way the church handles certain topics.
Hello, I'm well aware that there can be good-intentioned people in the mormon church, however, I'd ask you to consider what it means to stay a member of an organization whose teachings lead to LGBTQIA+ youth committing suicide at a prevalence higher than other states? How can you be a member of an organization that doesn't, really, treat women equally when you stop to think about it? There are a lot of warts in the mormon church, and they have rewritten the history and have been gaslighting their members about it. You've been told that people will just try to spread lies about the church, and that the church is true so you don't need to question it. But if the church is true then it should be able to stand up to scrutiny of your own research.
Just because you think you are doing some greater good by trying to change the mormon church from within doesn't mean you're not oppressing LGBTQIA+ directly or indirectly. Consider this-- does someone joining the KKK with the intent to change it from within make them not a racist? How many years can they be part of that organization before they are complicit?
I'm sorry if any of this seems too harsh, these are just things I wish I would've thought about a few decades sooner. Best of luck in whichever path you take.
Nah, not harsh at all. I understand your perspective and agree that it's a bad look to stay in a place that does bad things. I greatly disagree with the church on many points and have been on the edge of leaving for a long time. My wife and I talk about various things on the near daily honestly including all the bullshit they have done to women. We both have our own wounds from the church.
I see through the gaslighting. I'm under no illusions that the church has some fucked up past and present. Much like our own country though, which also has fucked up past and preseng, if people don't try to enact good, it won't come on its own and the assholes win. I'm not ready to throw everything away that is good when I can see the bad being removed, and it is happening. Despite the old guard clinging to their bullshit I see more and more of us pushing back against that and trying to correct the wrongs of the people that came before. Very few things in this world are all good or all bad. Especially anything with history to it. And if no one tells people they are in the wrong, then people will rarely question themselves if they are.
And in that same vein, I appreciate your words. And I will honestly take them to heart and consider more thoughtfully if my time with the church needs to be done. Because you are right, how long can one be in any group without being an accessory to its actions?
The Jehovah's Witnesses have this problem too. Their workaround is that "their [anonymous] governing body has had new revelations and insights" so now it works like this.
For a cult to survive the death of its founder, it needs to be picked up by a strong right-have man who can reform it into something that'll survive - but not in a way that will alienate all the followers.
I suspect the Mormans do something similar. Do they have a patriarch or use an elder counsel?
The mormons have a living prophet, who personally receives revelations with a 'direct line' to God somewhat like the catholic pope.
They also believe that these rules and their changes are necessary, as God sets the rules required to spread his faith. Polygamy is usually thought of (for lds) as a temporary act used to grow his re-created church via birth. Once it became a detriment, he saw it fit to disallow.
It's a powerful idea that makes it impossible for a person to see contradictions in a constantly changing religion. Any contradictions are simply God working in mysterious ways. He said what was needed, and now something new is required
grow... via birth
I've never heard that argument. I've instead heard that there were more women than men, so plural marriage was a way to provide for those women since men were the primary breadwinners. The men who engaged in plural marriage were generally well off, and many didn't actually have children with all of their wives.
I've heard that too, though moreso from people giving explanations for articles, videos, and history/history adjacent books. Most of the time when talking to individuals in the church I've gotten the answer of growing the church. This mostly from missionaries and the local bishop.
I have family who're mormon and grew up in the church so what I've stated in regards to polygamy is anecdotal. Arguments or beliefs may vary defendant on location.
The real reason I'd argue is due to joseph smith wanting to bang other wemon. The revelation came in the form of God wanting him to take another specific woman as his wife, and that his current wife must accept it.
Missionaries are all 18-21-ish, and they get trained for like a month. There's no way that's an official answer in any way, they're just repeating whatever some other missionary told them. I guess it kinda makes sense with the "multiply and replenish the earth" line from Genesis 1:28, but that's probably as far as the thought process goes.
And yeah, the actual origins are probably somewhere between the more official "take care of women" line and "wanted to bang women" line. But the fact remains that many men didn't bang all of their wives (or so they claim), so it's probably a mix of both.
Anonymous governing body you say 🤬☠️👁️📿🙏🤣
Eh, while the issues are correct, I don't recall the governing body being that anonymous; they just didn't talk about it much in meetings. The body is listed on their website: https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/governing-body-jw-helpers/
No women of course, and not all had pictures so I can't be sure, but didn't see much people of color, though I do recall some in the past.
In my experience growing up in the cult, one of the things that sorta helped it not feel like one was the lack of deifying the founder and body. While they do teach their own history of it, it wasn't a large part of the worship. There's lots of other cult hints like isolationist and punishment by group shunning and stuff of course.