this post was submitted on 19 Oct 2024
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GenZedong
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I used to like Fellow Traveler, but I immediately view with suspicion anyone who denies that China is socialist.
China is arguably "more socialist" than the USSR was, and if China isn't socialist, than the USSR never was.
While there are many ways and thought experiments to quantify socialism, and there isn't and probably shouldn't be just one ultimate factor, I think the simplest measuring stick is something like this:
Is China run as a country where the means of production are used to produce things primarily for use value? Yes.
Is private property and investment and commodity production tolerated and all, yet limited to a way greater extent than in neoliberal "democracies"? Also yes.
Is the commanding heights of the economy controlled by the proletariat, or at least by the state in the name and practical results of favoring the proletariat? Yes.
That isn't to say that China isn't above criticism or that socialism isn't a constant struggle, but I can't take seriously anyone who seriously questions if China is socialist or not.
I had the same take before I watched the video.
We should question everything actually. Why should I support China if I do not investigate the reality of the country?
The video is accurate to the current state of China. They still have a bourgeoisie but there is major proletarian influence. Their definition of socialism is different and he explains deng’s theory. It is a nuanced investigation.
My take which aligns with his is that China will not go full communism until the world is ready - ie when the world proletariat pushes for it. China is progressive but they are not exporting revolution.
My disagreement with fellow traveler is it seems he would prefer they export revolution. The USSR showed that policy was a failure because it makes you look like an interventionist and people’s movements look inauthentic.
I get behind and totally support "ruthless criticism" of everything. And dialectical materialism is baked into my blood.
I'm also skeptical if China does have a bourgeoisie class. I can definitely see China currently having something analogous to the bourgeoisie class, but the relationship to the means of production and capital is in my view, too different to directly describe as being bourgeoisie. Words have specific meanings, but also the general sentiment often matters more. There is no doubt a metric-shit ton of work still to do, and even China isn't exactly a worker's paradise.
I have no doubt that billionaires and corrupt CPC members have lots of power, but my partial understanding was that most of China's billionaires seemed to be "billionaires-in-name-only." Sure, they may have net worth in the billions, but only if they are at the head of or play an important part in state-owned enterprises or if the CPC thinks it's necessary to have the capitalist on a leash, which I think is fundamentally different than classical bourgeoisie and proletariat. I still kind of scoff at people that point out that China has billionaires, and view it as a false equivalence. How often does the CPC seem to kick their shit in, fire or imprison billionaires, expropriate their wealth, and limit their power and reach at every step of the way? The BiNO's can afford slightly fancier cars and houses, but they seem to have almost zero real practical power. I'm not naive about the risks, though.
Though I do think that no government is ever likely 100 percent efficient or 100 percent uncorrupt, and for instance I think it's a fucking travesty that the 696 work schedule and culture still exists, and that the CPC should do more to combat it.
I agree, I just find it useful to understand why people can’t get behind China as socialist even if I disagree with them.