this post was submitted on 17 Sep 2024
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If the point of supporting Ukraine is to support the international order of respecting borders, then an absolutist interpretation would mean you stop at your border when repelling invaders.
On the other hand, that would certainly result in invaders loading up on personnel and materiel on their side of the border until they reached some critical mass for a re invasion.
A lot of people might not remember the first Gulf War where the international community defending Kuwait stopped at the Iraq border. I think it could be argued that was a mistake on multiple levels, even ignoring everything we know that came after.
It's simply not credible for a group of countries responsible for constant invasions of other countries to claim to be defending borders or supporting any sort of international law. The US at this very moment is occupying a larger percentage of Syria than Russia is of Ukraine.
What on earth are you talking about occupying Syria?
Edit: they're misconstruing the 32-country military coalition that's been trying to degrade Da'esh since 2014 as the US military by itself occupying sovereign territory.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_against_the_Islamic_State
Some may remember the breathless daily & weekly map updates on the news showing areas controlled by Da'esh changing. Might remember the coalition partnering with various groups of differing militancy & reliability. I think including us (the coalition) fucking over Iraqi Kurds...? I believe because Syria hated them? Or loved them?
So, y'know, absolutely nothing like Russia's completely unprovoked, unilateral decision to invade Ukraine because Putin was afraid of Ukraine getting too chummy with NATO countries, possibility even considering joining NATO.
Those two statements are in the same phrase... My god
So your contention is that Nation A considering joining an alliance that Nation B doesn't like - not actually joining, just considering - is a provocation worthy of military invasion?
Jesus what a world that would be.
See, that's an entirely different statement. Threatening to join Russia's geopolitical rival's military alliance while bordering Russia, is provocation. The acts in Donbas since 2014 are provocation. Is it "worthy of military invasion"? I don't believe so. The proto-fascist Russian government is clearly not acting entirely out of pure will and self defense, and I'll be the last to defend it since I have loved ones directly suffering under that government. But it's important to frame things correctly, and yes, threatening to join NATO while bordering Russia is a huge provocation.
Particularly, NATO has no history of defensiveness (as far as I know it has never intervened for the defensive purposes it's supposed to uphold), but it has a history of offensiveness. Yugoslavia and Libya can both attest to that, and extra-officially (technically not NATO interventions even if many NATO members participated one way or another), countries such as Iraq can also attest. The case of Iraq is a perfect example of what unprovoked invasion in modern times is, and we are still forced to see libs fall heads over heels for a fucking Dick Satan Cheney endorsement to Kamala "most lethal army in the world" Harris.
So, yes, when a country bordering you chooses to join a historically aggressive military alliance that openly challenges you, that's huge provocation. And it's important to state so when we talk about the war in Ukraine.