this post was submitted on 26 Apr 2024
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Yes to group delusion, but I feel the same way about many things - climate inaction, the state of democracy, how well-served the average person is by neoliberal capitalism, politics
It sounds like you might be a newer vegan, in which case 1) congrats on making the change - it's great you're here!!! and 2) I want to mention that anger like you might be experiencing now (eg, wtf is wrong with carnists) was a strong emotional reaction that I had after becoming vegan that I didn't see coming and that passed rather quickly. (I'm foggy on the timeline but I recall the intensity wore off after 6 months.)
For example, I have a vivid memory of sitting in a small university class. The class material involved minor mistreatment to a dog (eg, left in a car in a parking lot, no window open for 10 minutes), and my classmates - all of who were omnis, some of whom were eating meat products at that very moment - got so up in arms. I thought "wtf is wrong with you people? How can you see comparably sentient beings in such polarized and incoherent ways?"
In the same way that being vegan takes food skills that are learned with time, I think the same is true with psychological skills about living in a world that we might see as sick and unjust.
The way I see it, it's often easier to do what is popular even if it's morally wrong than to do what is unpopular even if it's morally correct. And as animals we're programmed to do what's easy. I think what's unique to us as humans is our potential to reflect on things and to choose to do what's right over what's easy. Our society doesn't value that type of behaviour.
I think doing what's safe and easy is the main reason why people eat meat, and every delusion is in service of fighting off the cognitive dissonance between a) seeing themselves as good people (something we all want to think) and b) frequently doing something that on some level they're not comfortable with.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't arrive at through reason. I also don't think you can shame people into changing against the grain of what's easy. I've converted one person to veganism. And I wasn't trying to. We were friends and they brought up the subject of (I'm paraphrasing) "why love one and eat the other" (e.g., dog vs pig/cow). I think I offered them a pretty safe space to think about it and I shared my perspective in a very non-judgemental way. Weeks or months later (I can't remember), they came back to me and said "I went vegan soon after our conversation, and I feel great, and it's been easier than I expected so far." I don't think I could have done my part there unless I was non-reactive and non-judgemental. I think the crucial ingredient is that they had the courage and resources to confront their dissonance and re-evaluate their position.
You're not crazy, you just live in a crazy world. It gets easier with time, and vegan social support and other resources help too
Thank you for the wire up. I couldn't have said it better. The only thing i want to give a different perspective on, is this:
I think there's countless reasons why people decided to go vegan. And not all of them include understanding and compassion for the carnist's position.
I've become vegan because reading "vegetarians are murders" made me feel awful (was vegetarian at the time). For me, it was definitely a form of shaming, or at least condemnation of my way of life, that made me change.
Different strokes for different folks I guess 🤷♂️
Thanks for your comment!! I agree there's no one-size-fits-all for how people change for the better. Regarding shame, I think there's an important distinction between the internal emotional experience of shame and the interpersonal behaviour of one person shaming another. Sometimes they go together, sometimes not.
To use my understanding of your case as an example, I wonder if another person verbally shaming you (in front of others) would have led to a similar honest reflection on your behaviour that led you to go vegan? Instead, was it important that you were exposed to a message that could elicit internal shame and that you also had the space and safety to stew on it?
I dealt with a lot of toxic shame as a kid (not related to diet), so I might have biases in thinking about the utility of shame in assisting people in going vegan. I too was vegetarian before vegan. I think for me it was more that a) I realized I should do better (e.g., after watching vegan documentaries), and b) I felt willing and able to give it a try. I think someone shaming me would have only slowed me down getting to a) and b). But, as you said: different strokes for different folks
I love this. I've never thought about what my trajectory would have looked like, if I had been shamed in person.
Now that I think about it, I'm not even sure shame is really the emotion that I was feeling before going vegan. I think having to face the reality of my actions probably elicited guilt rather than shame, because there was no social aspect to it (I don't even know who wrote the sentence in the first place).
I think shame might be more effective for behavior change when it comes from one's social context. There were times when I was younger, I wouldn't mention I was vegan around coworkers, because I was ashamed of what they might have thought (yes, I've eaten vegetarian meals after becoming vegan).
On that token, I would say shame might only "work" in social settings, where the majority is vegan already. But that would probably not make someone believe in animal rights. Rather it might influence a person's actions while in that setting.
Thank you for your well thought out reply. You've changed by mind 😄
Btw, I'm sorry to hear that you experienced a lot of shame in your childhood. I hope your doing better nowadays.
Interesting reflections! Great chatting with you :)