Rules TBD.
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/26476469
The corporate media says Putin wants to take over the world, and Trump says Zelenskyy somehow managed to trick the US into supporting him — but the reality is that NATO’s long-term strategy of expansion towards Russia’s borders made war inevitable.
The only REAL path towards peace is the abolition of NATO!
Before the internet insane people were left to paint with chalk on the streets... And now this.
If you were to say what you just did in Poland on the street, you'd get lynched.
You're right, the good guys in history we're always the ones lynching people.
Thats because poland is ruled by natonazis right now
Look, I hate NATO and the European Union, but Russia is not "defending against NATO". Capitalism IN RUSSIA caused this. It was the fall of the USSR that made Russia ultra-capitalist, and then ultra-imperialist. Russia is not a bastion of Socialism. It has a mercenary army, an entire military-industrial complex, and a barbaric mistreatment of actual workers. A lot of western politicians believe that Russia is communist, but that's just because they're idiots.
Nobody believes Russia is Communist right now except for random conservatives. Russia trying to secure a buffer zone against a hostile millitary alliance hell-bent on intimidating them into opening up their industry for foreign plundering, just like what happened during the fall of the USSR, is certainly an action a Capitalist country can take.
Morality is a separate matter from what caused the war initially, and given the peace deals offered by Russia towards the beggining of the conflict that were denied by the UK and US all had to do with NATO membership, I think it's a valid explanation.
IsThisButterflyMeme[tankie].jpg?
Not sure what your point is, I'm openly a Marxist-Leninist on a Socialist community whose icon is that of Marxism-Leninism.
Ever heard of nuland the nato imperialist who couped ukraine
wtf are these pro-nato comments? am i on the right community?
The pro-nato comments tend to be from other instances
i miss being able to block instances so much
Generally liberals seeing a title and reacting to it. These aren't typically Socialists, but people participating anyways.
are they like subscribed or did this post just somehow got to the homepage? if they're subscribed that's a really sad state of affairs for the self-proclaimed socialist community in the usa (where i assume most of these people come from)
I can't speak for them, I assume they browse by all and found this post that way. It's possible that some are subscribed, though.
Maybe if Russia wasn't such a shitty fucking neighbor those countries wouldn't have felt the need to be protected from it.
NATO isn't a "defensive union," it's a millitary alliance of Imperialist countries that uses its collective strength to strongarm enemies of NATO. NATO was formed as an explicitly anticommunist organization whose leaders included Nazis like Adolf Heusinger. When threats alone don't work, NATO engages directly, such as in Operation Gladio.
Countries either join NATO, or are under constant threat from NATO, in which instance it makes far more sense to join it as a poor country devastated by the reintroduction of Capitalism.
Bullshit take! Basically you say the only way to not get beat up by the bully is to give him your lunch money.
In your reasoning where is the part that gives Russia the right to invade another nation?
You say you can just go: " has a strong influence on these states? That's unacceptable, I should have influence on these states, I should take them by force" and do whatever you want like it's not your fault, you were forced to do so.
It's true that Trump says the US was tricked into helping Ukraine because he's full oc shit. Maybe with him the war wouldn't have happened but just because he would have given his buddy Putin the lunch money, not because he's a diplomatic genius. Anyway all of this doesn't matter, he wasn't in office when the war started, and whatever he says has nothing to do with how the war started and how it went, he has been president for a month, he has yet to have any influence over the war and whatever piece of news tells you anything is "because of Trump" or "despite what trump did/say" is trying to manipulate you.
If NATO were abolished, Putin would not stop his attack, he would just complete the takeover of Ukraine, and because it went so well he would just go on and takeover the rest of the ex Urss. And keep in mind that these countries are so keen on being part of Russia that they joined NATO.
Nuland is the bully and azov is her lackeys
I would give up my lunch money if it meant not getting into a brawl.
If the mafia shakes you down every week, you dont snitch to the cops, because the cops can only make more violence. Its the same principle here. You won't get out of this situation with more war.
War is shit for people who live through it. Nato is only good for making war. On dearming can stop war.
Maybe Baltic States,Poland, Czechia etc. just want to give a big, fat fu*k to USSR after decades od ocupation?
Edit Jest noticed, that this map split Czechoslovakia before it even happened.
The Soviet Union was dissolved, countries normally don't react on emotions, but material conditions. Countries either join NATO, or are under constant threat from NATO, in which instance it makes far more sense to join it as a poor country devastated by the reintroduction of Capitalism.
I used your argument in a convo with a Redditor. Maybe you can help me with the rebuttal.
As they stated, Finland and Switzerland are Imperialist countries that have very different conditions from the devastated post-Soviet countries, who were treated with a carrot and stick approach. The Nordics have had a strategy of riding the wave, so to speak, investing very little and reaping the benefits from countries actually propping up Imperialism.
Essentially, they are landlords, and the US and other heavy NATO investors are the police state. The Russo-Ukrainian war spooked some of the Nordics into joining because they can no longer trust a "free ride" after Russia invaded Ukraine to avoid triggering Article 5, that doesn't mean NATO isn't coercive or Imperialist.
Do you have anything on their argument that they keep hammering down on how alléguele post soviets countries took over a decade to join?
I don't think it's particularly relevant, Capitalism wasn't a nuke that obliterated 7 million people instantly, it did so rapidly but unfolded and people reacted over time. History isn't an instant series of chain reactions, but contradictions working themselves out.
That said, no offense, but I wouldn't engage people unless you're confident in being able to pull off the argument.
Yeah, I am not as knowledgeable as Russian-Ukrainian relations as I should. I just posted the PSL post on Reddit and got bombarded with rebuttals which I don’t know how to address a lot of them
Edit: Your argument was sound so I used it, but I didn’t know how to address the rest of the points so decided to ask you since I was using your argument.
Assuming you're a PSL cadre (or pro-PSL), I would personally recommend familiarizing yourself with some of the "spicier" topics before posting. I am sure there are PSL cadre who you can ask for guidance and resources before attempting agitprop.
Also, since you now are more familiar with what gets pushback, analyze what gets pushback, and what the weakest links are, and agitate those. For example, I think explaining why NATO is Imperialist is easier than trying to explain that NATO provoked Russia, the first conclusion however makes the second easier to grasp. Further, you can explain how Imperialist countries function, and then explain NATO's role in solidifying that, and connect it to the modern conflict.
Just my 2 cents
Or get this we don't want to get invaded again.
I'm sure some people believed that too, but NATO isn't a charity case. It's dominated by the US and is used to advance Imperialist interests through measures like Operation Gladio. Well, it's dominated by the US for now, looks like that may change this admin.
So You say, that Finland and Sweden was under constant threat from NATO before 2022, and decided to join it?
Finland and Sweden are Imperialist countries themselves, they just kinda coasted by without needing to commit to being in NATO because they thought they could get all of the benefits without committing.
“expansion”
did NATO invade those countries?
Or did they willingly join a defensive union without threats?
NATO isn't a "defensive union," it's a millitary alliance of Imperialist countries that uses its collective strength to strongarm enemies of NATO. NATO was formed as an explicitly anticommunist organization whose leaders included Nazis like Adolf Heusinger. When threats alone don't work, NATO engages directly, such as in Operation Gladio.
Russia even tried to join NATO after the dissolution of Socialism and the adoption of Capitalism, but was rejected.
So they willingly joined. got it.
Sure, never said otherwise. Imperialist countries do in fact wish to remain Imperialist and millitary alliances help solidify that.
NATO is an offensive imperialist empire not a "defensive union".
NATO has attacked many countries under false pretenses. Recent examples are Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya.
This is not to absolve Russia of any blame but let's not whitewash NATO.
Can’t tell if sound is distant Russian artillery or Ukrainian socialists throwing their phones at the walls.
Ukrainian socialists
The ones Zelenskyy banned?
E: you don't even have to go that far, social democrats were also banned
What a shit take.
It's the standard Marxist take, being anti-NATO is pretty much universal among Marxists. That doesn't mean being pro-Russia, necessarily, but recognizing that as a millitary alliance of Imperialist countries, NATO exerts pressure on its geopolitical adversaries, and the war likely would not have happened had NATO not existed.
So a war started by a non NATO country against a non NATO country is the fault of NATO.
Got it!
The war was started because Putin wanted to start it. There are a lot of valid reasons to criticize NATO. But this war is not one of them and is entirely Russia's fault.
The war was started by usa the evil leader of the Nazi Arming Terror Organization
Ukraine was cozying up to NATO, and historically Russia has been attacked through Ukraine due to geography. The Nazis, for example, invaded the USSR first through the Ukranian SSR. This is why Ukrainian NATO membership has always been extremely dangerous for the Russian Federation. Invading and demillitarizing before Ukraine joins NATO is the only way to keep a buffer zone and avoid Article 5.
The morality of the war isn't really relevant when discussing why it was started. If NATO didn't exist, Russia would likely not have invaded Ukraine as it would not have anything to gain. Russia invaded Ukraine, yes, but this invasion only happened because of NATO increasingly trying to intimidate Russia millitarily into opening up its industry for foreign Imperialists to plunder, just as they did after Socialism was dissolved, only reversed because the Nationalists took power (Putin's party).
If it makes you sleep better at night...
It's not about what comforts me. I wish there was no NATO and no invasion, and going further I wish the Soviet Union never dissolved. What we are dealing with is real events guided by real conditions, and not the random whims of world leaders to satisfy ego.
going further I wish the Soviet Union never dissolved.
It's not about what comforts me.
Sure bud <3
I explained what would be comforting to juxtapose with the unfortunate reality of the situation. I could have also said I wish we lived in a Star Trek Utopia and it would have provided nearly the same rhetorical impact.